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| Mar-27-11 | | alternative moves: THANK you!
Phony Benoni: <alternative moves: Could someone please clarify why black could not just play 36. Rxf8 and take that pesky bishop? Thank you.> click for larger view
White plays 37.Qh4+. He will trade queens after 37...Qh7 or 37...Kg7 38.Qg5+, then regain the piece by Rxc5 with an extra pawn and a good endgame. |
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| Apr-08-11 | | CharlesSullivan: As <parmetd> has pointed out, a crucial variation occurs in the game at move 32:
click for larger view
32...Qh7 33.Qe8+ Qg8 34.Qh5 Bb6 35.Bg5+ Qh7 36.Bf6+ Kg8 37.Qg4+ (although <parmetd> gives 37.Qg5, I think he means 37.Qg4+) 37...Kf7 38.Rxc5 Bxc5 39.Qxe6+ Kf8 40.Nf5 Rc7 41.Bg7+ Rxg7 42.Qf6+ Kg8 43.Nh6+
click for larger view
Here <parmetd> gives 43...Qxh6 44.Qxh6, which is very good for White. Instead, Black plays 43...Kh8! and White has nothing better than forcing a draw: 44.Nf7+ Kg8 45.Nh6+ Kh8 46.Nf7+, etc. |
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| Sep-07-11 | | Xeroxx: cool game |
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| Sep-28-11 | | wajit: No parmetd your wrong and Gelfands analysis is totally flawed. I have Gelfands book and give the follow from it. Basically starting from 30. Bxg6 hxg6
31. Qxg6+ Kh8 32. Rc1
and now black's best move truely is 32... Qh7 as you will soon see that it is without a doubt. Gelfand in his book gives the following as his main line continuation. 33 Qe8+ Qg8 34. Qh5 Bb6 35. g3!
He is tring to get the rook to the H file. Unfortunately he is wrong about it winning as you will soon see. 35.... Qe8 36. Qg4 Qf7
and we can stop right there as there is no need to see any more of his flawed analysis. Qf7 is clearly loosing according to Houdini 2.0 pro and it sees that it is instantly. Black's correct move to maintain the drawn postion is Qg8. After which according to Houdini white should play Qh5 back to same spot. This would allow black to draw by rep easily playing Qe8 again. I am not going to list long variations. I simpley wanted to point out how flawed this analysis is and that there is no win for white here So sorry this is not one of those special chess postions the computer cannot see clearly. Case closed. Have a nice day :) |
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| Dec-24-11 | | parmetd: You are wrong but thats okay you are not the first nor the last |
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| Dec-29-11 | | wajit: LOL right..... Qf7 from the black side is the wrong move. Its pretty easy to see that move looses. So clearly your wrong for making peeps jump threw hoops when white has nothing better. and black has a better move than the suggested move from the book. Unless of course you would like to share with us the so called magic secret. Unless your afraid to have it disected. But i doubt you can find a better move. The analysis like i said is totally flawed. Yes GM can go wrong and this is one of those time where Gelfand has failed. So unless you would like to share how it still looses please do so but to me white is not winning here. I doubt anyone will find a way for white to win. |
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| Dec-29-11 | | wajit: ok here is a line starting with part of the former analysis. 30. Bxg6 hxg6 31. Qxg6+ Kh8 32. Rc1 Qh7 33. Qe8+ Qg8 34. Qh5 Bb6 35. g3
Qe8 36. Qg4 Qg8! (not ... Qf7 very bad!)
So how does white go about trying to win since Gelfand misses Qg8 as a defensive resource?? Lets take a look... Well in this postion white only has 13 possible moves only 2 of those moves seem to make any sence and 2 other moves might be playable but probably not good for white. 37. Bg5 Qg6 38.Nxe6 Nxe6 39. Qh3 Qh6 leads to a draw by rep. also 38. Rxc5 also leads to draw by rep. So obviously Bg5 does not work for white to win.
37. Qh5 (a much better try) Qe8! (not ... Qh7 as this looses fast 38. Kg2 Rc7 39. Rh1 Re7 40. Bg7+! Rg7 41. Qe8 and white wins blacks queen.
at this point there might be several moves one is Qg4. If 38. Qg4 Qg8! as black wishes to hold the balance and could also lead to a draw by rep or
38. Qh3 Qg6 39. Bg5+ (white would so love to play Kg2 but Rc7! followed by Rh7 is crushing against white!)39. ... Kg8 40. Bf6 Re8 41. Kg2(attempting to sack here fails with 41. Rxc5?! Bxc5 42. Nxe6 Rxe6 43. Qxe6 and white has run out of attacking material to press on.)
41. ... Kf7 42. Rh1 Rg8 and black holds as white is not able to break threw here either and white has no real follow up that makes sence. I'm just throwing a few lines out there since parmetd is blowing smoke. I've seen plenty of peeps blowing smoke. Its ok to be wrong parmetd since your not backing up this postion with any hard lines other than smoke blowing. and i just busted Gelfands positional analysis. Anyone care to prove me wrong? Go right ahead and knock yourself silly. I would love to see it done personally. |
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| Dec-29-11 | | wajit: My hope point of posting here was to prove that Gelfands anaylsis is wrong. I believe that I have suffciently done so. and the reason for claiming that you parmetd are also wrong is because you made the claim that "The computer cannot see this position clearly." This has been proven to be false also. It is a rare thing that computer cannot see ceratain positions. It does happen but rarely in games. Normally it is positions that are either fortress like or pawn blocked or extremely complicated and deep positions beyond the horizon of a PC to see. The game and its anaylsis in general poses none of these complications and therefore is able to been seen correctly from a computer stand point. I have show that there is better defense than what Gelfand orginally posted and that the computer does in fact see this position properly. And the fact that parmetd offers nothing is basically useless. So are you gunna stand there and whistle Dixie or actually put up some information? The community is waiting to hear from you. |
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| Dec-29-11 | | TheFocus: Another prima donna steps forward. |
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| Dec-29-11 | | wajit: Another prima donna steps forward.
Who or what are ya refering too? |
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| Dec-30-11 | | TheFocus: You'll see. |
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| Jan-01-12 | | wajit: you'll see what?!? i guess am at a loss as to who or what!? |
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| Feb-29-12 | | Xeroxx: ok... |
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| Mar-04-12 | | wajit: "30. Bxg6 fxg6 31. Qxg6+ Kh8 32. Rc1 Qh7!? 33. Qe8+ Qg8 34. Qh5 (34... Bb6 35. Bg5+ Qh7 36. Bf6+ Kg8 37. Qg5+ Kf7 38. Rxc5 Bxc5 39. Qxe6+ Kf8 40. Nf5 Rc7 41. Bg7+ Rxg7 42. Qf6+ Kg8 43. Nh6+ Qxh6 44. Qxh6 with an insane endgame but white certainly can't be worse with the exposed black king) ... Qh7 35. Rxc5 Rxc5 36. Nxe6 Rc1+ 37. Kh2 Rc7 38. Nxd8 should be winning. These two lines certainly scared Shirov in this attack. That should be enough to make anyone's head spin... so I don't know how you all matter factually are declaring this sacrifice a draw unless you are turning on an engine and not using your head." Parametd's orginal quote and analysis above. This analysis is totally wrong since in the main line move number 35 ... Qh7. But black has a better move then that with Bb6. Qh7 is the wrong move Bb6 holds the draw. If Qh7 then yes Rxc5 wins. But Parametd doesnt do his homework very well Next :) |
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| May-18-13 | | wajit: So I guess no one has found anything else about this position or disproved what I mentioned. Parametd no comments?? No nothing huh? Didn't think so. and for The Focus still not sure what your talking about. But I guess my info will stand as true. Unless someone comes up with something. Otherwise case closed on this one. |
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Oct-07-18
 | | al wazir: I got 30. Bxg6 fxg6 31. Qxg6+ Kh8 32. Rc1, and I *thought* about playing 33. f4, and about Qe8+ after ...Qh7. But I didn't get as far as 34...Qg8 35. Bf8. Nor would I have been likely to play it OTB.
I see that I posted essentially the same thing on page 1. Good to know I haven't lost a step in seven years. |
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| Oct-07-18 | | Walter Glattke: Refined, 35.Bf8 threatens Bxc5 or Kf2 Rh1 both. |
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| Oct-07-18 | | Walter Glattke: The first view shows 33.Rxc5 Rxc5 34.Nxe6 Rc1+ 35.Kh2 Bc7 36.Bg7+ Kg8 37.Bf6#, but there must be a defense, or they had played that. |
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| Oct-07-18 | | Walter Glattke: Trap: 35.Rxc5 Rxc5 36.Nxe6 Rc1+ 37.Kh2 Qh4# |
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| Oct-07-18 | | Walter Glattke: 36.-Qxf8 instead of Nd3!? brings 37.Qxf8 Rxf8 38.Rxc5 won ending for White. |
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| Oct-07-18 | | patzer2: Computer Chess programs, such as Stockfish 9 (rated 3679 at http://www.computerchess.org.uk/ccr...), have become much stronger in the seven years since today's Sunday puzzle (30. ?) previously appeared here (i.e. Sunday March 27, 2011). After the initial forcing moves 30. Bxg6 fxg6 31. Qxg6+ Kh8, Stockfish 9 reveals White's strongest follow-up is not 32. Rc1 = (0.00 @ 36 ply) as the Black improvement 32...Qh7! = leads to a forced draw after 32...Qh7! 33. Qe8+ Qg8 34. Qh5 Bb6! = (0.00 @ 44 ply). Instead, White's strongest follow-up is 32. f4! (+1.01 @ 36 ply), when Stockfish 9 indicates strong play might continue 32. f4! Qh7 33. Qe8+ Qg8 34. Qh5 Qh7 35. Kf2 Be7 36. Rh1 Kg8 37. Rh3 Bf8 38. Qg4+ Bg7 39. Rh4 Kf7 40. Bxg7 Qxg7 41. Qh3 Qg6 42. Rh6 Nd3+ 43. Ke2 Nxf4+ 44. exf4 Qe4+ 45. Qe3 Qxg2+ 46. Ke1 Kg7 47. Rh5 Rc1+ 48. Qxc1 Qg1+ 49. Kd2 Qxd4+ 50. Ke2 Qe4+ 51. Kf2 Bc6!? 52. f5! ± (+2.73 @ 37 ply). P.S.: I suspect there are improvements to be found for Black in this analysis which might offer drawing chances, but clearly 32. f4! ± gives White a strong initiative with excellent winning chances. |
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| Oct-07-18 | | agb2002: White is one pawn down.
Black threatens Qh4.
The weakened black castle suggests 30.Bxg6 fxg6 31.Qxg6+ Kh8 32.Nf3 with the idea Kh2 followed by Rh1. However, Black has several defensive moves like Qh7, Rc7, Bc6-e8, etc. I don't know. On the board, I'd probably accept the risk of playing 30.Bxg6 instead of settling for 30.Nf3. |
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| Oct-07-18 | | thegoodanarchist: It's move 30, and White's entire army is activated except for the idle queen's rook. It is literally doing nothing, since White doesn't even have an a-pawn to guard anymore. How to activate him, get him in the game? Well, clearly the bishop needs to move, but to what square? 30. Ba2? is pointless. Black can just play 30...b3 and now you've blown it... All the other squares just lose the Bishop outright, or leave it vulnerable to Black attack (c2). So without even calculating a variation, we see that if White wants to win the game, he is forced to sacrifice the bishop on g6. And what a square! The sacrifice nets White two pawns, and leaves the Black king exposed. A handsome payoff indeed. So by simple qualitative analysis, we see that the path forward for White is either sacrifice on g6 or resign yourself (pun intended) to getting ground down in defeat. |
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| Oct-07-18 | | Peabody: Could someone please explain black move36 Nc3, capturing the bishop on f8 would have helped. |
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| Oct-07-18 | | Strelets: <Peabody> I'm not so sure about that. If Black takes the bishop then Gelfand could play 37.Qh4+, which will eventually force a trade of queens. After Black recaptures, White plays Rxc5 leaving him a pawn up in an endgame with a good knight against a bad bishop and another target in the form of Black's backward pawn on e6. |
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Kibitzing
sac: 30.Bxg6