< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 2 OF 2 ·
|Jun-15-05|| ||schnarre: 6. e6? was definitely not a wise move.|
|Sep-11-05|| ||alexandrovm: hey, give <Geza> some credit, the guy was supposed to play against Lasker in a World Chess Championship match in 1906.|
|Jan-14-09|| ||Morphischer: Good finish|
|Jan-14-09|| ||whiskeyrebel: I agree. A playful choice of opening too.|
|Oct-14-11|| ||BOGGLED: There is an identical game in the database here that gives NN vs Lasker. Could be a mistake and Lasker was actually playing the black pieces.|
|Nov-23-14|| ||TheFocus: From a leapfrog tandem simul (with Maroczy>, in Hamburg, Germany on October 9, 1900.|
Their score is unknown.
|Jan-18-15|| ||MariusDaniel: Very nice game played by two chessmasters|
|Nov-24-16|| ||offramp: Who else took part in "--.-- off --- (1900)"?|
|Nov-24-16|| ||Retireborn: According to Chessbase, this game was part of a simul played somewhere in Germany, October 1900.|
White's name unknown (NN) and Black was Lasker AND Maroczy (presumably they played alternating moves.)
|Nov-24-16|| ||Paarhufer: <BOGGLED> mentioned an identical game more than 5 years ago. I assume he meant this one: NN vs Lasker, 1900|
It is not identical, because the moves 10-13 are somehow swapped. But according to my source (Neue Hamburger Zeitung, 10 Oct 1900, p 10) both game-scores are wrong. It happened 7.. Nge7 8 b3 Ng6 9 Bb2 Bc5 10 a3 a5 11 0-0 0-0 12 Ne1 f5 13 Qc2 Nf4.
<TheFocus> commented the other game with: <From a leapfrog tandem simul (with Maroczy), in Hamburg, Germany on October 9, 1900. Their score is unknown.>
Their result was +27, =1, =1.
|Feb-15-17|| ||sachistu: Good information <Paarhufer>. Apart from the variance of moves e.g. 7 to 13, does the rest of the score given in Neue Hamburger Zeitung match the score given here? I have not been able to access that paper.|
|Feb-16-17|| ||Paarhufer: <sachistu> Thanks. I will check the game-score again within a few days. |
Since my post of Nov-24-16, I've learned that the game appeared already in two versions in Maroczy's book 'Világversenyek élén' (Budapest 1943, p. 70 & 90).
|Feb-17-17|| ||Paarhufer: <sachistu: Apart from the variance of moves e.g. 7 to 13, does the rest of the score given in Neue Hamburger Zeitung match the score given here?> Yes, it does (except of one obvious typo).|
|Feb-18-17|| ||sachistu: Thanks <Paarhufer>. Just to point out another source... In Ken Whyld's book,The Collected Games of Emanuel Lasker, #548, p.97, the score is given (starting with Black's 7th) as 7...Bc5 8.a3 a5 9.b3 Nge7 10.Bb2 Ng6 11.0-0 0-0 12.Qc2 Nf4 13.Ne1 f5 14.Nd3 following the score given here. Whyld cites the book 'Vilagversenyek elen Maroczy' 1943 p70. Whyld states (in parentheses) 'Also, a transposition of the above game in on p.90'. |
I am assuming this tracks with what you have found in that book (which I do not have), so it's unclear which version was actually played. At least one of them varies from the Neue Hamburger Zeitung version you cited.
Apparently, Lasker and Maroczy teamed up for other 'leapfrog' simul games with at least 3 having been played in Hamburg, 1900 (according to Whyld's book).
|Feb-18-17|| ||sachistu: <Paarhufer> I meant to point out the version Whyld gives has the move pairs 10 and 11 transposed. Thus, it does not exactly 'follow' the game currently on the <cg> site. In re-reading my message, I can see my wording was not the best.|
|Feb-18-17|| ||sachistu: <Paarhufer> While I am correcting things, in my last sentence of the kibitz regarding Whyld, I meant to write '3 other' games played at Hamburg, 1900.|
|Feb-18-17|| ||Paarhufer: <I am assuming this tracks with what you have found in that book (which I do not have)> I don't have Maroczy's book either, and so I cannot provide the alternative game-score.|
|Feb-18-17|| ||sachistu: That's unfortunate <Paarhufer>. Unless someone else on the site has the book, perhaps one of us will obtain a copy. Meanwhile, as far as I know, Whyld is considered pretty reliable. In as much as he cites the Maroczy book as his source, it seems reasonable that the score as given here is correct (albeit with the transposition of move pairs 10 and 11). The alternative version (order) you cited from Neue Hamburger Zeitung may the alternative mentioned in the Maroczy book. |
It's not clear why Whyld chose the (almost identical) version to the one also given here, other than it was the earlier page number (70 vs 90).
In any event, the venue should be updated as I believe that is not in dispute.
|Feb-18-17|| ||Paarhufer: <sachistu: In as much as he cites the Maroczy book as his source, it seems reasonable that the score as given here is correct (albeit with the transposition of move pairs 10 and 11).> Well, I don't know what you are going to do with this game, but currently I would give the game-score from the newspaper preference. The game is there accompanied with a nice report of the event, and it was published the day thereafter. So, this is doubtless a primary source. Maroczy's book, published 43 years later, is secondary material and the two versions therein prove that it is not reliable.|
<In any event, the venue should be updated as I believe that is not in dispute.> Event, site, player names and the date should be changed.
|Feb-18-17|| ||sachistu: Good points <Paarhufer>. Ordinarily, I would agree the initial report should be given preference. However, I found the book was written by Maroczy, so I would think he would know. |
Notwithstanding that, we do not know if Maroczy used the score from his notebooks(?) or from memory, in which case it is easy to see how the order may have been transposed. As I'm sure you have noticed, the game could have gone differently i.e. move 9 in the NHZ version, so the order from 7 to 13 does have significance.
As far as a correction slip is concerned, I was waiting for your perspective and perhaps some other independent confirmation.
I believe we do agree the event/site/player names and year should be:
NN-Emanuel Lasker/Geza Maroczy
Hamburg leapfrog (or tandem) simul
Hamburg, Germany, Oct. 9th, 1900 - agreed?
|Feb-19-17|| ||Paarhufer: <sachistu: However, I found the book was written by Maroczy, so I would think he would know.> A temporal connection is indispensable for primary sources. For good reason, as I experience again and again.|
About the corrections: everything looks fine, but I assume the site tag should be 'Hamburg GER'.
<As I'm sure you have noticed, the game could have gone differently i.e. move 9 in the NHZ version, so the order from 7 to 13 does have significance.> I remember that the move order from NHZ is less precise, but I have seen nothing too obvious.
|Feb-19-17|| ||sachistu: Again, you raise a valid point <Paarhufer>. In my opinion, we have two good sources (despite the lapse in reporting time). It often takes years for a player (or a biographer) to have a game collection published, so I would not necessarily discount the Maroczy book just because it came out later.|
Since the score given here does not exactly match either source, it seems an update is in order. Since the game is not being removed, I would presume <cg> will retain all the kibitzing. This would allow anyone who might see a different score to follow the source(s) and variances that have been identified.
I really have no problem using the NHZ version. If I submit the correction slip, do you have any problem with citing you in presenting the source?
As far as GER or Germany is concerned, I probably should have omitted that from the venue update. The location of Hamburg is fairly understood. From what I have seen on this site, there seems to be a variety of ways the Event/Site is listed. I'm not sure how <cg> stores it internally. I'm just basing these comments from a quick look at other games on the site.
|Feb-19-17|| ||Paarhufer: <sachistu> Please, take the score you prefer.|
<If I submit the correction slip, do you have any problem with citing you in presenting the source?> You mean referencing my post of Nov-24-16? No, there is no problem.
<there seems to be a variety of ways the Event/Site is listed> Yes, that's true. Editors can change the site tag for some time, and since then they apply a certain pattern (please see Editor Notes).
|Feb-19-17|| ||sachistu: Yes <Paarhufer> I was going to reference the citation from Nov 24 2016.|
Thanks for the tip on the Editor Notes.
|Feb-19-17|| ||sachistu: Correction slip has been submittd <Paarhufer>.|
< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 2 OF 2 ·