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| Apr-18-09 | | FlashinthePan: I don't get it, why doesn't black play 27...Ra8 to protect a6 and avert the number one threat of a5 becoming a passer, which actually caused black's loss in the game? It would then seem much harder for white to progress. |
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| Apr-18-09 | | notyetagm: 27 ... ?
click for larger view27 ... ♖b8-b5?
click for larger viewMONOKROUSSOS (http://chessmind.powerblogs.com/fil...): <The game has been very well played by both sides, with each player finding new resources for attack and counter-attack. <<<But now Aronian falters. Instead of continuing in an active vein with 27...Rd2, he makes a single semi-passive move and it costs him.>>>27...Rb5? [27...Ra8 28.g3 Ra7 29.Ra4 Rd4 30.c4! Ke7 31.Rxb4 Kd7 32.Rc5 Kd6 33.Rf5 Ke6 34.Rf3 Ra8  ; <<<27...Rd2! 28.g3 Re8!= ]>>>> (VAR)
27 ... ♖d7-d2! 28 g2-g3 ♖b8-e8!= Δ 29 ... ♖e8-e2 <counterplay>
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click for larger viewA great example of the need for <COUNTERPLAY>, active plans for one's own pieces. Instead of the <ACTIVE> 27 ... ♖d7-d2!, 28 ... ♖b8-e8!=, 29 ... ♖e8-e2, Aronian chose the <PASSIVE> 27 ... ♖b8-b5? and lost |
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| Apr-18-09 | | notyetagm: <whiteshark: Maybe <27...Rd2> would have been a better choice here?> Yes, see my last post.
<FlashinthePan: I don't get it, why doesn't black play 27...Ra8 to protect a6 and avert the number one threat of a5 becoming a passer, which actually caused black's loss in the game? It would then seem much harder for white to progress.> 27 ... ♖b8-a8???????
click for larger viewThat is a *horribly* passive move that no master would make. The correct idea is to play 27 ... ♖d7-d2!, 28 ... ♖b8-e8!=, 29 ... ♖e8-e2 with <COUNTERPLAY> against the <7TH RANK>. No strong player would play a passive move like that 27 ... ♖b8-a8 unless no <COUNTERPLAY> was available. Here Black *does* have an <ACTIVE> plan. In which position does Black have more <ACTIVITY>?
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| Apr-18-09 | | Warheart: <Emms is wrong>
:) |
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| Apr-18-09 | | whiteshark: <notyetagm> I've to admit that Monokroussos line is winning. I had the position after <47.Kf6> on the board and thought that black could hold it due to a stable evaluation. Only now I realise that this is wrong. It's often a 6men tb win in 40-50 moves and my 5men tb just don't get it straight. Well, another lecture on horizon-effects for me. Thanks for your persistency! |
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| Apr-18-09 | | euripides: <FlashinthePan> Your suggestion is sensible and it is indeed not obvious how White should make progress. I see that Monokroussos on the link provided above gives the line <27...Ra8> 28.g3 Ra7 29.Ra4 Rd4 30.c4! Ke7(Monokroussos doesn't consider 30...Rb7 31.Rxa6 Rd3 but I think White has 32.Rc6 Rxb3 33.a6 Ra7 34.Rc5 heading for b7) 31.Rxb4 Kd7 32.Rc5 Kd6 33.Rf5 Ke6 34.Rf3 Ra8 and assesses it as . It's quite a delicate line as for instance the natural 28.f3 doesn't seem to work because it blocks the rook's escape later. But you're right that giving up the a pawn is a major concession. <notyet> <27 ... b8-a8???????> I know you're trying to be helpful, but can I suggest you might be a little gentler with the suggestions of new posters even when you think they're very bad ? Actually, this suggestion is not as bad as you suggest and in my view it needs concrete analyis to assess - sometimes the best way to hold an ending is to try to hold a fortress. |
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| Apr-18-09 | | euripides: After <27...Rd2> 28.Re1 or 28.Kf1 look worth considering. |
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| Apr-18-09 | | notyetagm: <whiteshark: <notyetagm> I've to admit that Monokroussos line is winning. I had the position after <47.Kf6> on the board and thought that black could hold it due to a stable evaluation. Only now I realise that this is wrong. It's often a 6men tb win in 40-50 moves and my 5men tb just don't get it straight. Well, another lecture on horizon-effects for me. Thanks for your persistency!> Yes, Aronian knew that line was a loss, not a draw, and so he avoided playing into it. |
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| Apr-19-09 | | FlashinthePan: <notyetagm: Yes, Aronian knew that line was a loss, not a draw, and so he avoided playing into it.> QED! Therefore, 27... Ta8 was indeed at least worth considering and certainly not deserving of a peremptory '!!!!!!!'. As you wrote, no master would make such a move, but perhaps a full-grown GM would. What's your name again? |
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| Apr-19-09 | | notyetagm: <FlashinthePan: ... QED! Therefore, 27... Ta8 was indeed at least worth considering and certainly not deserving of a peremptory '!!!!!!!'. As you wrote, no master would make such a move, but perhaps a full-grown GM would. What's your name again?> Look at those two diagrams again, smartass. |
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| Apr-19-09 | | shintaro go: Nb6 is a nice move. |
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| Apr-19-09 | | FlashinthePan: <notyetagm: Look at those two diagrams again, smartass.> The more I look at them the more I realize that it is crucial for Black to maintain a rook on the 8th rank, on a8 for that matter, both to protect a6 AND prevent a white rook from invading the 8th rank winning a tempo with a check. By so doing, not only would White allow the promotion of the a5 passer, but he would also gain access to the h file via h8 and thus annihilate the power of the "pigs" on the 2nd rank, in the very same way that it happened in the game: in other words, Black's presumed counterplay would vanish in thin air and a5 would be unstoppable. It is therefore clear that doubling the rooks on the 2nd rank is a flawed plan. As a matter of fact, you yourself wrote that Aronian knew that line was doomed. So what other move(s) does that leave us? Besides, activity in itself and at all costs is nothing: you may acquire a very active position and be mate in two. IMHO, all chess is about is prioritizing your moves by assessing a given situation and not quoting general principles that don't match the context, but that of course requires some insight! |
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| Apr-19-09 | | Ulhumbrus: Instead of 19...Bxe5, 19...Bf5 attacks the c2 pawn. |
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| Apr-20-09 | | euripides: If <27...Rd2> 28.Kf1 what does Black have ? 28...Re8 runs into 29.Re1. 28...Rb5 can produce lines a tempo ahead of the game if White takes on a6, but 29.Ke1 looks promising for White e.g. 29...Rad5 30.Rc1 and the pawns are still vulnerable. <Ul> If <19...Bf5> I think White could play 20.Be3 with the idea of Bxa7 and Nc6. If Black stops this with 20...Nb5 then perhaps 21.Nc6 Re8 22.Nxd6 Nxd6 (cxd6 23.Nxb4 looks winning for White) 23.Nd4 and White seems to keep the extra pawn with an active position. |
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| Apr-22-09 | | whatthefat: <Warheart>, <notyetagm> Oh wow, you're actually arguing over what's official chess terminology and what isn't. Truly amazing. And <notyetagm>, was it really necessary to use umpteen posts - each <<littered>> with your <absurd> <USE OF TERMINOLOGY> to <<CLASSIFY EVERYTHING>>, obselete <LONG ALGEBRAIC NOTATION>, and <completely gratuitous> <<FENs>> - to essentially say: "24.Nb6! is strong, since 24...cxb6? 25.axb6 is winning. 32.Rc8! is also impressive, since 32...Rxf2 is now obviously met by 33.Rxc7+ winning. 27...Rb5? is the losing move; it was better to seek counterplay with 27...Rd2! 28.g3 Re8! = 30.g4! not only provides an escape for the king, but also prevents ...Rf5. Finally, 34.Rh8! is another strong move, covering the h2 pawn, preparing promotion." |
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| Apr-22-09 | | ahmadov: I read lots of such comments but I am still far from becoming a GM :-) |
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| Apr-22-09 | | notyetagm: <whatthefat: <Warheart>, <notyetagm> Oh wow, you're actually arguing over what's official chess terminology and what isn't. Truly amazing. And <notyetagm>, was it really necessary to use umpteen posts - each <<littered>> with your <absurd> <USE OF TERMINOLOGY> to <<CLASSIFY EVERYTHING>>, obselete <LONG ALGEBRAIC NOTATION>, and <completely gratuitous> <<FENs>> - to essentially say:> Censor me or bite me. |
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Apr-30-09
 | | Mateo: <notyetagm: Anyone have a <RYBKA 3 EVAL> for the acceptance of Karjakin's piece sacrifice above?
24 c4-b6! c7xb6? 25 a5xb6> No idea but after careful examination, I would say there is no forced win. However, White has very dangerous prospects. For instance, 24...axb6? 25.cxb6 Re8 26.b7 Rab8 (26...Ra7? 27.Re1+ (threatens Rxe6) Kf7 28.Rc4 (followed by Rce4), White wins) 27.Rxa6 (threatens c7) Ke7 28.c4! (28.c7 Rxb7 29.Rxe6+ Kxe6 30.c8Q Rxc8 31.Rxc8 g4! (xh2) could offer drawing prospects) bxc3 32.Rxc3. Then, White has so many threats and Black so little counterplay, I would say White should win slowly. |
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May-01-09
| | Mateo: 32...c6 is a clear loss. More stubborn was 32...Ra2 33.Rxc7+ Ke6 34.Rxa2 Rxa2 35.a7 g6. Not easy to find the winning idea here... Maybe 36.Kg2 trying to bring the King to c4. So Black will have to bring his King to the d file sooner or later. Then Rg7. It is sophisticated and quiet long to explain but I think White wins. |
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| May-01-09 | | Open Defence: < Mateo: <notyetagm: Anyone have a <RYBKA 3 EVAL> for the acceptance of Karjakin's piece sacrifice above? 24 c4-b6! c7xb6? 25 a5xb6> No idea but after careful examination, I would say there is no forced win. However, White has very dangerous prospects. For instance, 24...axb6? 25.cxb6 Re8 26.b7 Rab8 (26...Ra7? 27.Re1+ (threatens Rxe6) Kf7 28.Rc4 (followed by Rce4), White wins) 27.Rxa6 (threatens c7) Ke7 28.c4! (28.c7 Rxb7 29.Rxe6+ Kxe6 30.c8Q Rxc8 31.Rxc8 g4! (xh2) could offer drawing prospects) bxc3 32.Rxc3. Then, White has so many threats and Black so little counterplay, I would say White should win slowly.> 28.c3 also seems strong |
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| May-01-09 | | WhiteRook48: why does black resign? no counterplay? |
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| May-02-09 | | Granny O Doul: <WhiteRook> Because that's a white pawn on a7. |
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| Jan-08-13 | | vinidivici: <whatthefat>
<24.Nb6! is strong,> Agreed, 24...cxb6 25.axb6, the pawn chains at the 6th rank would surely lethal. |
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| Feb-27-14 | | SpiritedReposte: Thought black would have a perpetual but Rh8! defends while giving the a-pawn a green light to queen. Nice neutralization of two rooks on the 7th rank. |
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Nov-25-20
 | | Korora: And even if that other crow were not on a1 to answer 34... ♖g2+ 35. ♔h1 ♖xh2+ 36. ♖xh2 ♖c1+ with 37. ♖xc1 with 38. a8=♕ guaranteed, Black would still not have had a perpetual after 37. ♔g2 ♖c2+ 38. ♔f3 ♖c3+ 39. ♔e4 f5+. This is because 40. gxf5 would leave Black with either 40... ♖c4+ 41. bxc4 or else 40... ♖e3 41. ♔xe3; either way 42. a8=♕ would inevitably follow. |
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