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|Feb-16-10|| ||YouRang: <JG27Pyth: YouRang<The more I look at this, the more I think that it would actually be an easier game to win with 43...b1=Q. But 43...Be1+ is still spiffier-looking.>
No. It draws. 43...b1=Q 44.Rb5+ Ka2 45.Ra5+! 1/2 - 1/2 ... White doesn't take the Queen unless he can win it outright, he just checks on the a and b file with perpetual.
No, after, Ka1, black stops the perpetual with Qa2 and exchanges Q for rook, leaving black with a B+2P against a bare K and 2 pawns.
Then, black can easily zugzwang the 2 pawns away from white and win without complications. It may be longer from a move-counting standpoint, but it's practically running on autopilot.
|Feb-16-10|| ||TheBish: R Mateo vs C Cuartas, 1984|
Black to play (43...?) "Easy"
43...Be1+! is a simple solution (which is why it's labeled "easy".
Don't know what all the discussion is about!
|Feb-16-10|| ||RandomVisitor: 43...b1=Q 44.Rb5+ Ka2 45.Ra5+ Kb2 46.Rb5+ Ka1 47.Ra5+ Qa2+ 48.Rxa2+ Kxa2 49.g4 f5! is apparently a tablebase win for black.|
|Feb-16-10|| ||muralman: I agree with nullfidian. 2 for 2 this week.|
|Feb-16-10|| ||patzer2: Not sure of the exact point that White started losing, but 19. exf5= instead of 19. Nxb5? seems a good place to look for an improvement.|
With 31...Kf8! Black begins a King walk to bring his monarch into play for a near decisive endgame advantage. Not sure if it's a forced win, but it looks awful hard to prevent a Black victory at that point.
|Feb-16-10|| ||YouRang: <RandomVisitor: 43...b1=Q 44.Rb5+ Ka2 45.Ra5+ Kb2 46.Rb5+ Ka1 47.Ra5+ Qa2+ 48.Rxa2+ Kxa2 49.g4 f5! is apparently a tablebase win for black.>|
Yes, but one need not 'find' 49...f5! to win.
Simply bringing the king over such as 49...Kb3 with intent to go over and eat the white pawns wins while only barely requiring the use of one's brain. :-)
The bishop may be used to restrict the white king or defend Pf6 (via ...Bd4 or maybe ...Bh4) if necessary. In any case, white can't hold off the advance and the white pawns will fall.
|Feb-16-10|| ||FSR: I saw the win with ...b1(Q) and didn't bother looking further. I agree with YouRang that that win is actually easier than that following the flashier ...Be1+.|
|Feb-16-10|| ||Cushion: ...43? Black to play
If black plays Bxg3 the white can pin the bishop which should decide the game. If b1=Q the Rb5+ wins the queen back with at least a draw. If b1=N+ then black has no winning chances. So black has to queen with check. The only way to do this is Be1+!. after Kxe1 b1=Q+ and wins. After Ke2 the b1=Q Rb5+ Bb4 and wins.
|Feb-16-10|| ||JG27Pyth: @YOURANG<No, after, Ka1, black stops the perpetual with Qa2 and exchanges Q for rook, leaving black with a B+2P against a bare K and 2 pawns> |
Indeed, now I see it. You are right. And yes then it's quite hopeless for White, no need to play further.
|Feb-16-10|| ||sileps: Black really wants to promote his pawn as fast as possible since he's behind in material. 43..b1=Q is countered by 44.Rb5+ which leaves white with some counterplay. |
So we need a move that can block the white rook's attack.
43..Be1+ is the obvious move here. White can choose to capture the bishop with 44.Kxe1 and black can now safely promote. Avoiding the capture doesn't help either.
|Feb-16-10|| ||sileps: I do think 43..b1=Q is a win for black though, but whatever.|
|Feb-16-10|| ||David2009: Re R Mateo vs C Cuartas, 1984 -
click for larger view
(Black to play) Egg on my face: after 43...Be1+ 44 Kxe1 b1=Q+ 45 Kf2 Crafty finds 45...Qc2+ 46 Ke3 Qc3+ winning the g3 Pawn, since 47 Kf2 loses the Rook to Qd2+ followed by either a fork or a skewer on d1. This is much better than my previous line 45...Kc4? 46 Rh8 (threatening Re8 barring the Black K) Qb6+! 47 Kg2 Qc6+! 48 Kf2 Kd5 (which seems to lead eventually to a complicated win, breaking down the White fortress by zugzwang).
<YouRang>, <RandomVisitor>: The win starting b1=Q and subsequent B ending is hard to find over the board against good defence: you may care to explore winning the position (with colours reversed) using the Crafty link given in my first post R Mateo vs C Cuartas, 1984
|Feb-16-10|| ||RandomVisitor: <David2009>I played your clever Crafty game-play-contraption and had fun.|
|Feb-16-10|| ||YouRang: <David2009><The win starting b1=Q and subsequent B ending is hard to find over the board against good defence: you may care to explore winning the position (with colours reversed) using the Crafty link given in my first post>|
Okay, that was fun. :-)
Here is how it went.
First the sequence that exchanges our new Q for the rook:
Black saves his pawn:
My K now moves in on pawns:
9.Kc5 Kf4 (attack my Pf3)
10.Bd5 (guard Pf3) Ke5
12.Be4 (take away f5) Kd6
14.Bd3 (waste tempo) Kf6
15.Kd5 (push away K) Kf7
I've eaten the pawns, and the rest is basic.
|Feb-16-10|| ||WhiteRook48: I was thinking 43...Be1+ but after 44 Ke2 what happens?|
|Feb-16-10|| ||WhiteRook48: oh I see now|
|Feb-16-10|| ||reztap: Not difficult, but cute.|
|Feb-16-10|| ||JG27Pyth: @David2009<<YouRang>, <RandomVisitor>: The win starting b1=Q and subsequent B ending is hard to find over the board against good defence: you may care to explore winning the position (with colours reversed) using the Crafty link given in my first post> |
The win against crafty gave me no trouble and I'm a <long> way from the 2400+ of the participants.
|Feb-16-10|| ||turbo231: Bishop e1+ is your only move, Queen vs Rook. I wonder if a GM with the Queen could beat Rybka with 6 man end game tablebases. I would pay some money to see that game. My Rybka has some crazy EGTB, I downloaded a 5 men EGTB plus alot of extra tablebases, everyone i could find. My Rybka starts using tablebases with 13 men on the board!!!!|
|Feb-16-10|| ||Funicular: Of course, the brute and simple b1=Q eventually followed by Qa2+ and the subsequent ending is theoretically won. But it's like Lasker said, "when you see a good move, look for a better one"|
The spirit of the puzzle is to find the best possible continuation, not to WIN the game (in fact many times it's a drawing resource that we're supposed to look for), or to find something that wins the game, for that sake. It's about the beauty of the game itself, and to become better chess players
This is by no means criticism for those who just said "ok b1 and thats it". Its just what I feel when I see those kind of posts.
The key of course, its Be1 followed by Kc4
Cheers from Argentina
|Feb-17-10|| ||sileps: David2009; thanks for that link. This is pretty instructive for inexperienced people like myself that need to learn themselves how to beat QvR-endgames.|
|Feb-17-10|| ||YouRang: <RandomVisitor: 43...b1=Q 44.Rb5+ Ka2 45.Ra5+ Kb2 46.Rb5+ Ka1 47.Ra5+ Qa2+ 48.Rxa2+ Kxa2 49.g4 f5! is apparently a tablebase win for black.>|
I tried this (...f5! line) against <David2009>'s Crafty site, and it does actually win even easier.
You should try this, and then try the 43...Be1+ line which leads to the QvR ending. Decide for yourself which is easier, but IMO the bishop and pawns ending was much easier to win.
|Feb-18-10|| ||FSR: The line David2009 gave (per Crafty) 43...Be1+ 44.Kxe1 b1(Q)+ 45.Kf2 Qc2+! 46.Ke3 Qc3+! winning the g-pawn by force is a simple win. But Black has to find that sequence (or else it's very difficult), and 43...b1(Q)! is much easier (especially, but not only, if Black plays 49...f5!). Play out the lines against David2009's Crafty and you'll see what I mean.|
|Jul-11-11|| ||Eduardo Bermudez: a splendid final blow !!|
|Jul-12-11|| ||Eduardo Bermudez: Carlos Cuartas (1940-2011)|
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