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Joseph Blackburne vs John Burt
Blindfold simul, 10b (1871) (blindfold), Bristol ENG, Nov-23
Italian Game: Evans Gambit. Morphy Attack (C51)  ·  0-1

ANALYSIS [x]

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Kibitzer's Corner
Jun-08-19
Premium Chessgames Member
  MissScarlett: Harding's book dates this simul to November 21st but the <Bristol Daily Post> of November 30th, p.3, which gives the score of this game, and the <Western Daily Press> of November 23rd, p.1, agree on the 23rd.
Jun-08-19  john barleycorn: Harding? no, thank you. that guy is full of himself.
Jun-08-19
Premium Chessgames Member
  MissScarlett: That's <Herr Doktor Harding> to you; I just call him <Tim>.
Jun-08-19  john barleycorn: <MissScarlett: ... I just call him <Tim>.>

Good to see how close you are the "greats" here.

<Tim>, <Ray>, <hazza> etc pp

Nov-01-21  Z truth 000000001: I think the 21st is correct too. Can <MissS> quote the text of the two papers which suggest the 23rd?

Sure do well any biographer could consult the necessary sources - open source style, especially when contesting a reputable source such as Harding.

.

Nov-01-21
Premium Chessgames Member
  MissScarlett: Whatever happened to <barleybore>?
Nov-01-21  Z truth 000000001: Don't deflect... !
Nov-01-21
Premium Chessgames Member
  MissScarlett: The <Bristol Daily Post> of Thursday November 30th 1871, p.3, has:

<We have great pleasure in laying before our readers the following games, played by Mr. Blackburne, blindfold, at the Athenaeum, on Thursday last.>

The other game being Blackburne vs Colonel Baker, 1871.

The mystery, such that it is, can be explained by the knowledge that Blackburne's visit being a three-day engagement, as explained by the <Western Daily Press> of November 22nd, p.2. On Tuesday, he conducted a 17-board regular simul (+16 -1), and the Wednesday, single and consultation games.

Nov-01-21
Premium Chessgames Member
  HeMateMe: BURT'S, don't it?!
Nov-01-21  Z truth 000000001: Given that <Missy> has taken the affirmative stance correcting Harding, I believe s/he has the obligation to fully suss out the source info.

The question now seems to be when Blackburne arrived in Bristol for his 3-day stay, and what he did on each day?

So, reading the previous post, the Wednesday <WDP> notes Blackburne's 3-day stay, and I assume the same source explicitly mentions the 17b simul on Tues Nov 21 (1871), and odds and ends on Wed Nov 22.

We already know <Missy> claims Nov 23 for the final 10b simul with the prestigious members of the Bristol Anthenaeum CC.

So Blackburne was in Bristol on Nov 21-23.

Let's ask - does this schedule make sense?

Specially, that the select first-rank members of the club, who arranged for his appearance, defer to the very end of his stay for their turn of play?

Hmm....

Not to mention that my reading of an excerpt by Harding suggests his source was Burt's own account in his written history of the Bristol CC.

(Does anybody have more info on Harding's Note 32 concerning the matter?)

Nov-01-21
Premium Chessgames Member
  MissScarlett: <Specially, that the select first-rank members of the club, who arranged for his appearance, defer to the very end of his stay for their turn of play?>

Patience was a virtue back then. It had to be. Besides, some of these first-rank players had faced Blackburne on the first two days. The presence of Colonel Baker of Bath and Fedden from Cardiff may also have influenced the schedule.

<Not to mention that my reading of an excerpt by Harding suggests his source was Burt's own account in his written history of the Bristol CC.>

Not my reading.

Nov-01-21  Z truth 000000001: OK, then, what were Harding's sources, pray do tell...

.

Nov-01-21
Premium Chessgames Member
  MissScarlett: Harding's footnote #32 gives the source (<Western Daily Press>, November 27th) for Blackburne's statement that he had lost just 3 out of 74 blindfold games on tour, Burt's being the only one where he'd been outplayed.

Now, let it go.

Nov-01-21  Z truth 000000001: <Now, let it go.>

Not just yet... please allow me a little allowance since I don't have Harding's book.

The question, to be precise, is what source did Harding use to date the simul on Nov 21th?

If there are multiple primary sources which conflict, it behooves us to outline the discrepancies - and to allow some discussion of their resolution.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3yC...

Nov-02-21
Premium Chessgames Member
  MissScarlett: Harding doesn't detail his sources enough to know. It's conceivable - as you appear to suspect - that Burt's club history could be the source of the error. But I wouldn't be that confident that he'd actually read it.

The <WDP> report of November 27th, p.3, doesn't mention the date of the blindfold display, nor the other two days's play, so if Harding hadn't seen the earlier reports, he may have assumed it was a lone performance.

Compare with his account of Blackburne's visit to Bristol in 1888 (the one where he played <W G Grace Jr.>), in which all three days are described in detail.

Nov-02-21  Z truth 000000001: The analogy is a poker game - you raised the pot and I called, so it's only fair you showed your cards first.

I'd still be amazed if Harding's refs for the chapter didn't include the work reviewed here:

https://books.google.com/books?id=u...

I'm pretty sure Burt himself gave Blackburne arriving on the 21th, staying for three days, and playing the 10b simul on the first day, with the Burt game lasting 8 hours (but see below). All of which matches Harding's account.

One might expect Burt's telling to get priority, but whichever way one decides, a note on the ambiguity might be worth mentioning.

* * * * *

Here's Burt's account:

<
Mr. Blackburne arrived November 21st, and played ten blindfold games simultaneously against the following strong opponents,-Rev. A. C. Rowley, Messrs. Thomson, Fedden , Burt, Boorne, Vines, Cook, Banfield, Berry, and Col. Baker. The first three were drawn after 5 1/2 hours play ; Burt won at the end of 8 hours, and all the rest lost >

THE BRISTOL CHESS CLUB; ITS HISTORY, CHIEF PLAYERS - J. Burt (1883), p14

So yes, it's true, if one squints just right, a reading of the above doesn't conclusively say the games were played on the 21th, but a reasonable person would certainly interpret it that way.

And, while here, there's also this mention on p117:

<“ Mr. Blackburne, after the play was over, said that he had visited Halifax, Manchester (twice), Liverpool, Nottingham , Bir mingham , New Brighton, Cardiff and Bristol, and played eighty blindfold games against the strongest provincial players, and had only lost three games, two of which were won by inferior players through oversights that he made, THE BRISTOL PLAYER alone out playing him .” - Local paper.>

Nov-02-21
Premium Chessgames Member
  MissScarlett: So Burt was wrong, or Harding read it wrong, or both were wrong. Suffice to say, <cg> has it right.

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