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Oct-24-06
 | | Honza Cervenka: Cg.com challenge - position after move 19 if black would play 19...Rac8: click for larger view<RV>'s Rybka line is 6a. (0.35): 19...Rac8 20.Nd4 d5 21.Rae1 Nh5 22.g4 Nf6 23.h3 Qd6 24.fxg6 fxg6 25.Kg2 Bf8 26.Nxc6 leading into this position:  click for larger viewor (which looks less crazy to me)
(23-ply)
1. (0.34): 20.Nd4 Nh5 21.Qf2 Rf8 22.Rae1 d5 23.Nxc6 bxc6 24.Na4 Bb4 25.Rc1 Bd6 26.Nc5 Bxc5 leading to position  click for larger view |
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| Oct-24-06 | | monad: . Well done you!
I'll look in later.
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Oct-24-06
 | | Honza Cervenka: Less appreciated continuations by <RV>'s Rybka are 2. = (0.08): 20.Rae1 Nd5 21.Bd4 Nxc3 22.bxc3 Bf8 23.Rd1 Qe7 24.fxg6 hxg6 25.Qf2 f5 26.Rde1 Qf7 with position  click for larger viewand 3. = (0.05): 20.Kh1 Nd5 21.Bd4 Nxc3 22.bxc3 Bf8 23.Rab1 Qe7 24.Qf2 Qd7 25.Qh4 Qe7 26.fxg6 (pretty zwischenzug) 26....fxg6 (of course, 26....Qxh4?? 27.gxf7# would be picant mate but it is not going to happen here I guess) with position  click for larger viewSo is the move 20.Nd4 (cancelling Monad trap's idea to play Bd4 after black's Nd5) our way to go in case of 19...Rac8? |
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| Oct-24-06 | | RandomVisitor: I would say after 19...Rac8:
(23-ply)
1. (0.34): 20.Nd4 Nh5 21.Qf2 Rf8 22.Rae1 d5 23.Nxc6 bxc6 24.Na4 Bb4 25.Rc1 Bd6 26.Nc5 Bxc5 2. = (0.08): 20.Rae1 Nd5 21.Bd4 Nxc3 22.bxc3 Bf8 23.Rd1 Qe7 24.fxg6 hxg6 25.Qf2 f5 26.Rde1 Qf7 3. = (0.05): 20.Kh1 Nd5 21.Bd4 Nxc3 22.bxc3 Bf8 23.Rab1 Qe7 24.Qf2 Qd7 25.Qh4 Qe7 26.fxg6 fxg6 Looks like we play 20.Nd4 here. We could dig further but what would we gain? |
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Oct-24-06
 | | Honza Cervenka: The problem with computer lines and evaluations after 19...Rac8 seems to be that nothing is too much forced. Why is 20.Nd4 seen as superior here? Well, I can see one merit of this move - natural 20...Nd5 looks like no good again for 21.Nxc6 Qxc6 (21...bxc6 22.Nxd5 cxd5 looks pretty unattractive though it can be playable) 22.Bd4 (see position) click for larger viewwhich is the Monad trap again with swap of our Nb3 for black Bc6 and black Queen dragged further from defense of his own King. All of that seems to be in white's favour I would say. But black is not forced to do anything drastic at the moment. He can play 20...Ng4 with idea to post the Knight on e5 and eventually deploy his DSB on h8-a1 diagonal. Also 20...Bd8 can be playable (though this is already covered in analyses of 19...Bd8 20.Nd4 Rac8 I guess) or (a bit absurdly looking considering previous moves of black) 20...Rf8. Space gaining push 20...d5 looks playable as well. |
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| Oct-24-06 | | azaris: <1. (0.34): 20.Nd4 Nh5 21.Qf2 Rf8 22.Rae1 d5 23.Nxc6 bxc6 24.Na4 Bb4 25.Rc1 Bd6 26.Nc5 Bxc5> I don't know why this line is still bandied about, I already gave an improvement 23.g4 which leads to a forced line where Black is basically lost. |
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Oct-24-06
 | | Honza Cervenka: From main page:<RookFile><19....Rac8 20. Nd4 Kg7 maybe? This is a little different, you can't play ye old Bd4 if a knight is sitting there. So 21. Nxc6 Rxc6 22. Bd4 d5? Just a thought.> After 21.Nxc6 black can take on c6 also with Pawn and then kick the Bishop out of a1-h8 diagonal by c6-c5. But maybe that there is no need to be hurry with "doing something" from white's part. Simple developing 21.Rae1 looks fine and 21.h3 with idea Rf2 and Raf1 can be worth of considering as well. |
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Oct-24-06
 | | Honza Cervenka: <azaris> Can you repost your analysis here, please? |
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| Oct-24-06 | | azaris: 19...Rac8 20.Nd4 Nh5 21.Qf2 Rf8 (<Why?>) 22. Rae1 d5 23. g4 Nf6 24. Qh4 Ne4 (<What else?>) 25.f6 Bxf6 26.Rxf6 Nxf6 27.Qxf6 Qxg4+ 28.Kh1 with Rf1 to come. |
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Oct-24-06
 | | Domdaniel: Nice set-up <Honza> - welcome to the Forum Nickelodeon. I've got no new analysis to add at the moment, but I've got a strong suspicion that 19...Rac8 will be played. It fits easily with AN's stated strategy of gradually improving his position, and it brings the c-file into play. The wild and speculative knight moves like 19...Nd5 and 19...Ng4 may lead to unclear lines - or even be good for us - but they're simply not AN's style (unless there was a tangible benefit to be gained). So I'll follow what you say here with interest. |
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Oct-24-06
 | | Domdaniel: We were wrong. 19...Ng4 has just been played, after 24 hours. |
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Oct-24-06
 | | Honza Cervenka: <19...Rac8 20.Nd4 Nh5 21.Qf2 Rf8 (<Why?>) 22. Rae1 d5 23. g4 Nf6 24. Qh4 Ne4 (<What else?>)> Stubborn sitting&waiting guy would have considered 24...Rce8 with Ne4 trick in the air, for example 25.Rf3? Ne4 26.Qh6 (26.Qh3? Ng5) 26...Bg5 27.Qh3 [27.Nxe4 dxe4! (27...Bxh6 28.Nf6+ Kh8 29.Rxe8! is not so clear yet.) 28.Qxg5 exf3 ] 27...Bd2 etc. But I agree that black is still in troubles there, for example after 25.Nxc6 bxc6 (25...Qxc6?? 26.Rxe7! Rxe7 27.Bd4 ) 26.Bd4 etc. Well, in fact it looks pretty over (see position) with threat Rxe7! click for larger view |
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Oct-24-06
 | | Domdaniel: Hey,Honza. With 19...Ng4 played, do you plan to concentrate on any specific line here? And, if so, do you want it flagged on Twinlark's system, or would you prefer to stay separate? Either way is cool, of course. |
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Oct-24-06
 | | Sneaky: Hi Honza! Glad you opened your forum.
My gut hunch for the Arno Nickel game is 20.Nd4, just based on principles. It develops our worst piece. There are some very forcing lines after 20.h3 Ne5 (21.f6?! Bf8 leads nowhere) but none of them that I've seen are very ambitious for White. And about those rooks, well they both are serving a purpose. Of course we'll relocate our queen's rook to a better file soon, but that's not a decision we have to make yet--the course of the next few moves will probably tell us where that rook is most needed. |
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Oct-25-06
 | | Honza Cervenka: <Domdaniel> I have no concrete plan for "workshop" of my own right now. But in general I like the idea of workshops because on the main page with frequent posting some useful ideas and discussions related to them can be easily hopelessly buried and repeated reposting of earlier posts there is not an improvement. Twinlark's system of running workshops I see useful as well and so I have no problem with my chessforum to be incorporated there. The only obstacle is a circumstance that right now I am quite busy and also somewhat limited with my access to comp&internet to be able to make always a proper summary just in time before voting close. But space of this chessforum is at disposal for any workshop anytime. <Sneaky> I also think that 20.Nd4 is the most useful move though I am prepared to vote for anything different if I or anybody else would find and prove that there is a superior alternative. As I can see it, 20.h3 is the main and only serious candidate for such a move and it has not convinced me till now. |
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Oct-25-06
 | | Honza Cervenka: For analytical purpose I have played an "advanced" (i.e. comp assisted) quick game against Fritz 8 with line 20.Nd4 Bf8 21.Qg5 Ne5 22.Rad1 (see diagram) but black had no significant troubles to defend it successfully and the game ended after some small complications as dead draw. 22...d5!? preventing Ne4 is probably fine for black here. click for larger view[Event ""]
[Site ""]
[Date "2006.10.25"]
[Round "?"]
[White "HC"]
[Black "F8"]
[Result "1/2-1/2"]
[ECO "B42"]
[PlyCount "101"]
1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 e6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 a6 5. Bd3 Bc5 6. Nb3 Be7 7. Qg4 g6 8. Qe2
d6 9. O-O Nd7 10. a4 Ne5 11. a5 Nf6 12. Be3 O-O 13. Nc3 Bd7 14. f4 Nxd3 15.
cxd3 Bc6 16. f5 exf5 17. exf5 Qd7 18. Qd2 Rfe8 19. Bb6 Ng4 20. Nd4 Bf8 21. Qg5
Ne5 22. Rad1 d5 23. fxg6 fxg6 24. Nf5 Nf7 25. Qg3 Nh6 26. Nxh6+ Bxh6 27. Bd4
Qe7 28. Rde1 Qb4 29. Be5 Bg7 30. Bxg7 Kxg7 31. Qc7+ Kh6 32. Rxe8 Rxe8 33. h3
Qc5+ 34. Kh1 d4 35. Ne4 Qe5 36. Nd6 Qe2 37. Nf7+ Kh5 38. Rf3 Bxf3 39. Qc5+ Re5
40. Qxe5+ Qxe5 41. Nxe5 Bc6 42. Kh2 Kg5 43. Kg3 Kf5 44. Nf3 Bxf3 45. Kxf3 g5
46. g4+ Ke5 47. Kg3 h6 48. Kf3 Kd5 49. Kf2 Ke6 50. Kf3 Kd5 51. Kg3 1/2-1/2 |
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Oct-25-06
 | | Honza Cervenka: Well, 20.Qf4!? is quite interesting too, especially if 20...Qxf5 is forced reply of black which seems to be that case as 20...Ne5 21.d4 Nd3 (21...Nc4 22.fxg6 ) 22.Qh6 (seems to be better than immediate Qd2 as it drags black DSB from coverage of f6) 22...Bf8 23.Qd2 Bb5 24.Nd5 looks like a simul game exhibition finish.:-) click for larger view |
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Oct-27-06
 | | Honza Cervenka: Cg.com challenge - position after move 20 if black would play 20...Rac8: click for larger viewThis move looks less challenging than especially 20...Bf8 as it leave us in quiet without any forced continuation from our part. But still we should look at it anyway. |
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Oct-27-06
 | | Domdaniel: Hi, Honza.
Despite the 'don't bother' response on the main page, I still think it's a good idea to keep our eye on 20...Rac8. After all, the original idea of the workshop/forums was so that people could check out the latest analysis on a particular move. Even if the move proves to be not so good, it's still useful for people to see that a glance. It saves time, and duplication of effort, etc.In other words, thanks. And I'll continue listing your forum as active. |
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Oct-27-06
 | | Honza Cervenka: The first analysis of this 'waiting' move indicates clearly that this is not the way which GMAN can dare to play. The Bishop sitting on e7 makes a big difference here as now 21.Qf4 Ne5 22.Nxc6 bxc6 23.d4 completely destroys black position due to weakness of point f7. (see diagram 1) click for larger viewNow 23...Nc4 is at all not playable for 24.fxg6 with threat 25.Qf7+ Kh8 26.Qxc4 and 24...f5 25.gxh7+ (if there is nothing better from our part) gives us material advantage with attack. Also 23...Nd3 is clearly insufficient for 24.Qf3! Nb4 25.fxg6 fxg6 26.Qf7+ Kh8 27.Rae1 (see diagram 2) with threat Re3-h3 is not better.  click for larger viewBlack is forced to play 23...g5 which gives white huge advantage after 24.Qg3 (see diagram 3)  click for larger viewNow after forced 24...Nc4 a possible continuation is 25.f6 Bf8 26.Qxg5+ Kh8 27.Rf3! h6 28.Qf4 Rb8 29.Rh3 Kh7 30.Ne4 (see diagram 4) and white wins.  click for larger viewWell, 20...Rac8 is probably not going to happen in this game.:-) |
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| Oct-27-06 | | RandomVisitor: After 20...Rac8 21.Qf4 Ne5 22.Nxc6:
1: New game - Fritz 5.32, Blitz:4'+2 x 2006
 click for larger viewAnalysis by Rybka 2.1o mp: (18-ply)
1. ² (0.60): 22...Rxc6 23.d4 Nd3 24.Qf3 Nb4 25.Ra4 d5 26.fxg6 Rxg6 27.Qxf7+ Kh8 28.Bc5 Nd3 29.Bxe7 2. ² (0.62): 22...Nxc6 23.fxg6 fxg6 24.Qc4+ Kh8 25.Rf7 Ne5 26.Qd5 Rf8 27.Raf1 Rxf7 28.Rxf7 Rf8 29.Bd4 (, x 27.10.2006)
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Oct-27-06
 | | Honza Cervenka: <RandomVisitor> Thanks. Btw, after 22...Rxc6 23.d4 Nd3 24.Qf3 Nb4 instead of 25.Ra4 (which is good enough) white can play 25.fxg6 fxg6 26.Qf7+ Kh8 27.Rae1 with idea Re3-h3 which wins the game outright. |
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| Oct-27-06 | | RandomVisitor: <Honza>Check out the 20...Bd8 line on my forum. This move is playable and involves some wild moves. |
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Oct-27-06
 | | Honza Cervenka: <RandomVisitor> Yes, I am going to look on that possibility. |
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Oct-27-06
 | | Honza Cervenka: 20...Rac8 21.Qf4 Ne5 22.Nxc6 Nxc6 (see diagram 1) looks somewhat less bad for black than other lines. click for larger view<RV>'s Rybka suggests 23.fxg6 fxg6 24.Qc4+ with a neat tactical line 24...Kh8 25.Rf7 Ne5 <(fork!)> 26.Qd5 <(who cares?)> 26...Rf8 <[After 26...Nxf7 27.Qxf7 a threat 28.Bd4+ forces black to play 27...Rc5 with such a possible continuation: 28.Re1 (28.Bxc5 is possible as well) 28...Re5 29.Bd4 Rf8 30.Rxe5 Rxf7 31.Rxe7+ Kg8 32.Rxd7 Rxd7 33.Ne4 with easily won ending B+N+5P vs R+5P.]> 27.Raf1 Rxf7 <(27...Nxf7 28.Rxf7 Rxf7 29.Qxf7 Rc5 30.Bxc5 dxc5 31.Nd5 wins a piece.)> 28.Rxf7 Rf8 <(28...Nxf7 29.Qxf7 as in the previous note.)> 29.Bd4 (see diagram 2)  click for larger viewThis is clearly better and probably already won for white. If 29...Rxf7 30.Qxf7 Qd8 (unpinning Be7 due to threat Nd5), then 31.Ne4 leaves black without reasonable moves. |
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