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Aug-09-09
 | | chancho: <Joshka> apparently had more than one copy of the hoax book. From the Fischer page: <Joshka: OBTW, for folks who might be in the Ohio area, or considering visiting Cleveland, I will be donating a copy to the JOHN G. WHITE CHESS COLLECTION. They have over 74,000 rare chess books on hand, so I think it's fitting that they get a copy. This way folks will not have to spend a lot of money, to get this relic, they will be able to review the book for free at their leisure. I have read that this public library ranks NUMBER ONE in the amount of chess material, available for study!> Now the question is, if that library is called, and if asked about the availability of this book, will they have it? This is the guy who calls himself a patzer, but somehow he got his hands on two copies. Makes me think that he's a liar, but who knows.. |
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Aug-09-09
| | chancho: Interesting that he paid heavy money for the book, and then gave it away to the library. <Joshka> must make good money in whatever he does. |
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| Aug-09-09 | | JustToClarify: Mr. Day: A good computer program can perform very insightful analysis of chess positions. This invalidates your "The analysis is so good, it must have been written by Bobby Fischer" argument. Your assertion that the analysis could not have been done by a computer is a subjective impression; many chess players stronger than you, such as Yassir Seirawan, disagree with this conclusion. Indeed, you are the only international master or grand master who believes this book to be written by Fischer. The other stuff which is supposedly secret that only Fischer knew: A lot of this has been discussed here before. As pointed out elsewhere, the information in question was available for someone carefully investigating Fischer's life and events. To be honest, I am not a sufficient expert on Fischer to discuss this evidence the supposedly shows this book to be a work of Fischer, but other people here I am sure will chime in. I, however, am an expert on Mr. Trice and his behavior. Forging a book is consistent with his behavior and past history. Denying the forging and his involvement when put on the hot seat is also consistent with his behavior. Using computer programs to perform analysis of positions is something Trice is very good at. Keep in mind his correspondence chess rating (just below 2000, as I recall) is far higher than his over-the-board rating (1300). There is no evidence linking Fischer to the book, and a lot of evidence against this assertion you choose to ignore, such as Einar Einarsson's saying that Fischer had nothing to do with the book. <Note: Me. Day, in his reply to my posting, was unable to explain Mr. Day: A good computer program can perform very insightful analysis of chess positions. This invalidates your "The analysis is so good, it must have been written by Bobby Fischer" argument. Your assertion that the analysis could not have been done by a computer is a subjective impression; many chess players stronger than you, such as Yassir Seirawan, disagree with this conclusion. Indeed, you are the only international master or grand master who believes this book to be written by Fischer. <Mr. Day claims others feel the same way, but has no evidence backing this claim up> The other stuff which is supposedly secret that only Fischer knew: A lot of this has been discussed here before. As pointed out elsewhere, the information in question was available for someone carefully investigating Fischer's life and events. To be honest, I am not a sufficient expert on Fischer to discuss this evidence the supposedly shows this book to be a work of Fischer, but other people here I am sure will chime in. I, however, am an expert on Mr. Trice and his behavior. Forging a book is consistent with his behavior and past history. Denying the forging and his involvement when put on the hot seat is also consistent with his behavior. Using computer programs to perform analysis of positions is something Trice is very good at. Keep in mind his correspondence chess rating (just below 2000, as I recall) is far higher than his over-the-board rating (1300). There is no evidence linking Fischer to the book, and a lot of evidence against this assertion you choose to ignore, such as Einar Einarsson's saying that Fischer had nothing to do with the book. I will not continue this discussion with you until you explain to us why Einar's emails do not invalidate Fischer's authorship of M61MG. I have a feeling you will continue to ignore Einar's emails and continue beating on your "But I think it was written by Fischer so it must have been written by Fischer" drum you like to stay on. Fine, but I will not respect your reasoning skills until you discuss Einar's emails. <Mr. Day did not even bring up Einar's emails in his reply to this above; instead he had no argument supporting his position, so he acted like a child and flaming me for trivial crap like spelling "Yasser Seirawan" wrong> |
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| Aug-09-09 | | JustToClarify: Oh, Mr. Day's other arguments: "The forgery theory necessitates that the forger was hopelessly incompetent, easily giving himself away." is just another way of saying "It's not a forgery because it hasn't been shown to be a forgery". Errr, Mr. Day, the general consensus is that this book is a forgery. The only people who disagree are you, Mr. Trice, and whatever sockpuppet Mr. Trice creates this week. <Not to mention Joshka> "according to the theory, I must be an idiot not to have noticed. But I'm not an idiot." I'm not saying you're an idiot. IMs at Chess tend not to be idiots. I'm saying, since you spent good money for this book, your cognitive dissidence has kicked in and you're emotionally unable to accept you have made an error. It's an emotional issue you have, not an intellectual issue. <It's Cognitive dissonance; this spelling correction is the only thing Mr. Day can come up with to refute my arguments> Why didn't Trice put his name in the book? Because he didn't want to get caught, plain and simple. Why did Trice try to sell the books before Fischer died? Because he needed the money. He has lost at least three lawsuits and was, about two years ago, selling a lot of his personal things like an old Delorean car he had. What about the GM comment? Trice probably found it in a book or newspaper article. See, you haven't been able to bring up any points to invalidate the theory that Trice wrote the book. We have proof beyond a reasonable doubt he did: His past history of scamming people; The emails he sent to Mr. Labate trying to get money from him for the book; the fact that a user on the Wikipedia trying to assert M61MG was written by Fischer engaged in pro-Trice edits later on; the fact that, in one online discussion, all of the IPs supporting the existance of the book were from the same geographical area where Trice lives; the fact that Trice wore a "M61MG" shirt to the world open, and tried to sell M61MG books at another chess tournament; Einar Einarsson's email; and so on and so forth. Mr. Day, I respect you as a chess player, but as long as you respond to all of this evidence by putting your finger in your ears and going "I can't hear you!", I will continue to view your reasoning skills with the same respect I give the thinking processes of Birthers (people who think President Obama was not born in Hawaii), "The moon landings were a hoax" believers, and what not. ---
Mr. Day replied to these postings here:
M61MG Wrestler chessforum He did not bring up the Einar emails in his reply. Until he is able to explain these emails in a satisfactory fashion, and not with some "Fischer didn't let his closest friends like Einar know he was writing this book" conspiracy theory (which he tried doing once), he does not have a leg to stand on. |
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Aug-09-09
| | chancho: All Trice, <Joshka>, and <IMDay> say is that they believe Fischer wrote the book, that is it.
Not one single iota of real concrete evidence.
Trice cannot be believed because he lies way too much to be taken seriously. <Joshka> is basically Trice's lackey, and IMDay can only tell us stuff like: The Donkey, how did the forger do this or that? It's not possible! Fischer must have wrote it! He's a titled player, and that's noteworthy, but that is irrelevant here.
Show us some real evidence, for crying out loud! |
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| Aug-09-09 | | capatal: <chancho: All Trice, <Joshka>, and <IMDay> say is that they believe Fischer wrote the book, that is it. Not one single iota of real concrete evidence.> So far, the circumstantial evidence of 'the three M61MG promoters
being in cahoots' - 'is about as strong as finding a trout in your milk'. |
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| Aug-09-09 | | Jim Bartle: I don't see where chancho claims the three are in cahoot. He only says that Joshka echoes Trice's opinions, and that none of the three has produced any solid evidence. However the two defenders of Trice have invested themselves so deeply in the claim that Fischer wrote the book, that I believe they will not evaluate any evidence objectively. They're more like defense lawyers, as I said once before. But who knows, maybe I would do the same thing, but from the other side. |
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Aug-09-09
| | chancho: <Jim> No, I wouldn't put IMDay in cahoots with the other two. But their arguments are based on asking questions like: If it wasn't Fischer who wrote the book, then explain why this or that, which is nonsense.
Quite frankly it's a crock of @#$%. If they believe Fischer is the author, then once and for all provide some real evidence.
The book was first mentioned on this site by Ed Trice, a guy who has surpassed Pinocchio in the lying department, and then there's <Joshka> a guy that from what I've seen in his e-mails with Labate, will turn on a friend in a New York minute. I've seen people like that before. And then there's IMDay. He met Fischer once in 1968, (40 years or so ago) he claims Fischer wrote it. He's a titled player and worthy of respect, but since he too has not provided any real evidence, then I cannot agree in what he says either. There is one guy: Einar Einarsson President of the RJF group who said Fischer did not write the book. Trice tried to deceive us by saying that since Einarsson was not at the burial, that he was not privy to what Fischer was doing. That of course is typical Trice BS. Fischer arrived in Iceland in 2005... he lived there until 2008. It stands to reason that Einarsson saw Fischer quite a bit in all that time. So there is absolutely no doubt that he would have known that Fischer was writting a book. He said Fischer did not write it, ie I believe him.
The guy saw Fischer in those days. So his opinion trumps ANYTHING that is being said here. Fischer did not write the book. |
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| Aug-09-09 | | JustToClarify: Chanco:
If Mr. Day had real evidence, he would have presented it instead of attacking my spelling errors, and giving me personal insults. I think, at this point, Mr. Day knows the book isn't real, but has too much personal pride and too much anger directed against us to admit it. Mr. Day certainly expressed a lot of anger in his message, and, to be honest, I have to take responsibility for being rude to him to which contributed to his feelings of anger. It's just really frustrating to me to see Mr. Day still insist the book is real in the face of proof beyond a reasonable doubt the book is yet another Trice scam. Mr. Day: I apologize for saying things that might have contributed to your angry feelings. I understand you have a lot of anger directed against us because you feel we don't respect you. If you're willing to calm down and have a rational discussion with us, I'm willing to have that discussion with you. I hope Mr. Day can let go of his anger and stop stubbornly insisting the book is real. |
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Aug-09-09
 | | tpstar: This is an interesting discussion.
It seems the book owners are content to sit there and read it, knowing the opposition cannot fairly evaluate the contents or the authorship without seeing it for themselves, which makes for an effective debate tactic. Thus the book owners first bought the book, and second they bought the premise that Fischer wrote it, and they are satisfied to leave it at that. They may also suspect that people against the book will never be convinced by any amount of proof or lack thereof, so it's safer and easier to keep it to themselves. Meanwhile, the rest of the chess world views this as a money-making project rather than a literature-making project, fully emphasized by the mainstream chess media completely staying out of it. I would dispute the opposition's position about helping unsuspecting people save their money. There are local chess masters who sell lessons for $40/hour, and sometimes they watch two students play for an hour, thus $80 to watch chess. Who am I to say that their students are wasting their money? OK, it's the same with M61MG. I have long suspected that people use this site to create Internet buzz over the M61MG project, and repetitive debates like these may be unwittingly contributing toward this buzz. |
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Aug-09-09
| | chancho: All I know is that a man who saw Fischer up close and personal, Einar Einarsson, stated that Bobby Fischer did not write the book, period.
When you see Ed Trice trying to cloud the issue by saying stuff like Einar was not invited to Fischer's burial, blah, blah, blah, clearly he is trying to cast doubt on Einar in an attempt to discredit him. When this Einar e-mail first came to light, Trice said he never met Einar, that's it. Only after some months had passed, (and perhaps he gave some thought on how to attack the Einar e-mail) did he come forward with this bogus explanation. In short, he's attacking that e-mail because he knows it effectively kills any argument of his that the book is authentic. Which hints at a vested interest for Trice .
He simply does not have any real evidence to refute the Einarsson e-mail, if he did, he would have used it a long, long time ago. So he's hoping people will forget via various distractions and accusations to posters like Rob Mitchell, Ed Labate, etc. |
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| Aug-09-09 | | JustToClarify: Tpstar:
The "I have proof but I won't let you see my evidence" tactic is not an effective debating tactic. It's a cop-out. If Mr. Day had real proof in the contents of the book, he would publicly post the relevant portion of the book. Instead, he's flaming for spelling errors, which shows he's truly grasping at straws. What I'm seeing at this point is that we have clearly demonstrated Ed Trice as being a very dishonest, immoral, and unpleasant person. Indeed, Ed Trice erased all posts from his personal bulletin board and hasn't posted here since August 3 (well, except for the pathetic Shoelaces sockpuppet). We have also shown proof beyond a reasonable doubt that the book is yet another Trice forgery. [1] The Einar Einarsson email alone destroys the idea Fischer had anything to do with this book; the only thing Mr. Day has been able to come up with is some vague conspiracy theory where Fischer wrote the book without letting the people closest to him in his life know about it [2]. What Mr. Day and Joshka are doing is simply being stubborn. Personally, I think the reason they aren't willing to admit the book is fake is because the flames against them got out of control and they have a lot of anger they need to let go of before they become willing to back down and concede defeat. Mr. Day: Back down. You're not impressing anyone with your temper tantrums where you stubbornly cling on to the idea Fischer wrote this book in spite of all the evidence to the contrary. JTC
[1] I've been watch Ed Trice for a number of years and know this is the sort of thing he would do. He told BrainKing of a hi-end server they could have if the website would be used to promote Gothic Chess--the server only existed in Trice's imagination. Trice told fanciful stories of thousands of people going to Gothic Chess tournaments in the early-to-mid 2000s; Trice tried to sell land on Mars in 2008. Forging a book is consistent with his character; especially since Trice is the only person we have seen sell this book. [2] It's a conspiracy theory because, to be true, it requires Fischer to have conspired against the people closest to him in the last days of his life. Other people, who got the manuscript and published the book, would also had to have been part of the conspiracy. |
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Aug-09-09
| | tpstar: <JustToClarify> I believe you, yet I am not your target audience. The specific individuals you are trying to persuade may never be convinced. I don't mean to draw an artificial line between a personal attack and a personal judgment, but I believe it is unfair to call another member of the group "dishonest, immoral and unpleasant" under an anonymous handle. I wouldn't buy land on Mars either, but at least he represents himself. |
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| Aug-09-09 | | JustToClarify: The only reason I am anonymous is because Ed Trice is known to harass people who insult him. He has a known history of calling people up with threatening emails and phone calls. For example, in the blog entry:
http://www.rookhouse.com/blog/?p=314
The blog owner describes how "Trice hunted down my home phone number and threatened to sue me over this posting and coupled that with some juvenile obscenities in a cowardly voice mail (from a private number)" Because Trice uses harassment to stifle free speech, I must be anonymous for my right to free speech be protected. I usually do not use an anonymous entity; this entity (which has existed for many years) exists solely to let people know the truth of Ed Trice's nature and protect people from his harassment. |
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| Aug-09-09 | | MageOfMaple: <tpstar: I wouldn't buy land on Mars either, but at least he represents himself.> He also posts under numerous fake IDs, and tends to speak only in forums he controls where he deletes contrary opinions like mad. And he virtually never answers questions, except in a nebulous way where he answers questions with questions. So let's not give him too much credit. |
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| Aug-09-09 | | Jim Bartle: tpstar: Watch out, or our merry little band will suck you into our endless rehashing of the few known facts. It's highly addictive. You're a strong player, so I assume you've read a lot of literature. Does the following, from p. 735 of the book, sound like Bobby Fischer would write? Even taking into consideration that 40 years have passed, it's the opposite of the concise annotations in M60GM. "...each player has roughly the same level of Kingside resources distributed relatively suitably for the position, and Queenside has the appearance of defensibility, though in a state of pending liquidation. Such a static summary is shattered by the strategic maneuver I was about to undertake with the Knight." |
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Aug-09-09
| | chancho: <but I believe it is unfair to call another member of the group "dishonest, immoral and unpleasant" under an anonymous handle.> That may be so, but if people that are known in the internet community like Filip Rachunek of Brain King, who called Ed Trice a "master deceiver", or Mig Greengard, who called Ed Trice a "buffoon", and let's not forget Ed Labate who has called him a scum bag and sued him. I mean, with so many people who have similar stories to tell about Ed Trice, what are the odds that they are wrong about this man, and that the guy is actually a lovable fuzzy wuzzy heck of a human being? Not bloody likely.
Anyone who has followed his shenanigans (well, except for Joshka, Trice is his hero) can easily come to the conclusion that he's not a pleasant person and has been caught in many a lie that it's amazing he still has the gall to continue making outlandish claims. |
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| Aug-09-09 | | Jim Bartle: Piggy, such sloppy research! I feel so let down:
Mig also referred to Trice as a "sleazebag."
http://www.chessninja.com/dailydirt... |
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Aug-09-09
| | chancho: <Jim> lol |
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| Aug-09-09 | | PinnedPiece: <JTC: Indeed, Ed Trice erased all posts from his personal bulletin board and hasn't posted here since August 3 ...> FYI when you let your membership lapse, CG.COM closes your chessforum. This is what has happened to <ET>. If you re-subscribes (25$/yr) he will get all the kibitzes back as he left them...I can still see my last kibitz to his forum in mmy recent kibitz list, even though when i click it, it goes to a closed forum. He didn't delete everything. (Just most of my posts (which were about nothing anyway, according to <sharro>)) <IMlday: Trice's sock puppets are easy to spot. They lack the sophistication of Labate's, like JTC. ... > Allow me to offer a word of advice on this topic. From personal experience, my assessment of someone's ability to handle complex information and offer an accurate interpretation is directly impacted by them "guessing" that I am <Ed Trice>, or in Ed's case, that I am <Rob Mitchell> or <Rafal Furdzik> or <Gene Milener>. In my estimation, the "accuser" has simply shown--to me at least--that they can be fooled, and are willing to publicly go on record with their faulty analysis.... Ergo their posts have far less value to me. This is relevant for you. To maintain credibility in your assessments, your strategy should be: circumspection in stating that <JTC> for example, is <Edward Labate>. It may be true, although I don't see any evidence myself. Certainly, if <JTC> is NOT Labate, whatever assessment he had of your ability to evaluate complex sets of information, will drop precipitously. I have only reversed myself once on "ID of a sockpuppet," and that was when the evidence I accumulated was undeniable, and would convince "twelve good men and true." (NB: I have in the past asked CG.COM to provide a tool to request simply if Poster A was probably Poster B---no more info than yes or no---and they explained they could usually do this with certainly for themselves, but legal considerations prevented them from making a tool like that generally available. I think it would quench many arguments immediately, myself.) . |
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| Aug-09-09 | | MageOfMaple: <legal considerations prevented them from making a tool like that generally available> What a bunch of hooey. The admins don't even enforce their own "posting guidelines" even when the wistle is blown. They either enjoy the fact that this site is the wild west, or are too lazy to do anything about it. "Legal considerations" my eye. |
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Aug-09-09
| | chancho: <PinnedPiece> Anyone can be fooled.
Yes, I thought you were Trice at first because it seemed you were defending Trice at every turn and you thought he was not a major player in the book boon doggle, but you were being impartial, I guess.
But you yourself later realized you were mistaken about Trice as you started to digest the info on him, and found inconsistencies in the things that he was saying.
We are only human after all, bro. |
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| Aug-09-09 | | MrMelad: <IMLday> I can't even read your response. Its just plain stupid and full of emotions and big fancy words and stories not related. You don't want to be clear you want to be obscure, The only thing I understood was that Yasser didn't read the book and you did. So, brainiac, none of us read it either and unless you scan the book you can shove your highly rated over populated even greater than prosperity opinion. Someone said once, "your opinion was noted and was filed in the paper shredder" |
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| Aug-09-09 | | PinnedPiece: <MOM: hooey>
Your comment caused me to go back and look at their actual reply. I misremembered the "legality" bit. <chessgames.com: We have tools like that, but they are strictly for admins. There are many reasons why we do not want to make such data public.> . |
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| Aug-09-09 | | MrMelad: <tpstar:I have long suspected that people use this site to create Internet buzz over the M61MG project, and repetitive debates like these may be unwittingly contributing toward this buzz.>
I agree, but it is a felony to profit from the sale of this scam book so pointing out that it is in fact a crime shouldn't be considered advertising. I really don't understand how Trice didn't get arrested so far. Maybe they are waiting for him to frame himself some more online. Or maybe they just don't care enough for chess. |
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