< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 3 OF 3 ·
|Dec-22-05|| ||AlexanderMorphy: yes Rd4 was the key to this one...i initially missed it, but it only took me a few minutes to realise that it was the best move possible!|
|Dec-22-05|| ||RonB52734: <Sneaky> Thanks, your initial comment was very useful (which is not to say that your subsequent ones weren't). I was having a hard time seeing how the moves from 30 onward fit into the plan, especially Rd4. You nailed it for me.|
|Dec-22-05|| ||TTLump: ChessMaster 7000 gives the following assessment of the position after move 28...|
+1.55, 14-ply, 718 million positions, with the following continuation ...
so it seems in this type of situation a humanoid is better than a cyborg!
|Dec-22-05|| ||YouRang: I think I can say I got this. 29. Rc4 is almost obvious as it puts black's rook and bishop in prison. |
But then one must consider how black can escape, and there are two ways: (1) a check with either rook or bishop (currently the knight is preventing the rook check from a1), and (2) advancing his king to protect his pieces, which can be stopped with Rd4.
Of course, white's pieces are currently tied up as well. To free his knight, the white king needs to find a light colored square (because the bishop can attack dark squares), which cannot be attacked in one move by the rook - g2!
Excellent puzzle in long-term strategy!
|Dec-22-05|| ||kevin86: I saw Rc4 but not the necessary move of white's king away from the check at a1;a good Thursday puzzle-I answered it as a Monday and missed it :(|
|Dec-22-05|| ||Antipholous: Um...if black's king goes to d8 won't he be able to get over there? Obviously d7 would be the move he wants to make but the knight fork following will trade a knight for a rook. Rd4 would be followed by Kc7 and it looks like the Rook is powerless to stop him.|
|Dec-22-05|| ||YouRang: <Antipholous> If 29...Kd8, then 30. g3. Now where does the black king go? If 30...d7, he runs into the knight fork you mentioned.|
|Dec-22-05|| ||Sneaky: I analyzed the ...f5 idea, with help from my computer, and here's what I found. |
29.Rc4 Ke7 30.Rd4 f5 31.g3 Kf6 32.Kg2 Ke5 33.Kh3 Kf6 34.f4!
click for larger view
Here's that zugzwangish type position that I predicted earlier. Black has nothing productive to do, he must simply make meaningless pawn pushes and watch in horror as his bishop gets gobbled.
34...Kg6 35.Rb4 f6 36.Nd4 h5 37.Nc6 etc.
|Dec-22-05|| ||Stonewaller2: <shortsight: 30. ... ♔e6 falls to 31. ♘c5+ which wins a rook for a knight.> Yes, but isn't the resulting ♗ vs. ♖ endgame better, if only from a practical standpoint, than the text? I pant for light.|
|Dec-22-05|| ||Gypsy: Just in case; lest I missed it, this geometric motive was not put up yet: <30.Rd4!> Ke6 31.Nc5 Ke5 32.Rxb4 Rxb4 33.Nd3 .|
click for larger view
|Dec-22-05|| ||Lord Osiris: in <sneaky's> scenario however, the king can just bob back and forth between e6 and f6. the only way for white to win the black bishop for nothing is to move the rook in to c4. otherwise, when the knight is move to any other position black can unpin by threatening it with its rook. unfortunately, even if blacks king is on f6 when white moves: |
34...Ke6 35. Kh4(turn wasting move), Kf6 36.Rc4, Ke5 37.Nd4, Kd5.
whites attack is over and white cant complete the sequence of attacking the bishop with the knight. now, the white king can march up the h file and capture blacks h pawn here, but the best minor piece exchange for white here is a rook for knight.
bringing the white king into the game doesnt help either because after Kg2, Ra2+ frees the bishop.
the only real play here is to play the move Nc5+ when the black king is on e6. this is the only way to get rook for knight exchange here.
i think the best form of play was outlined by the GM. after all, thats how he got to be one.
|Dec-22-05|| ||Lord Osiris: the reason for Rc4 in my scenario is to play Nd4 and then Nc2. sorry, neglected to mentiont that|
|Dec-22-05|| ||patzer2: <Sneaky> After 30...f5 31.g3 Kf6 32.Kg2 Ke5 33.Kh3 Kf6, instead of your 34. f4! Fritz 8 gives the neat alternative 34. Rh4! h5 35. Rf4 Kg6 36. Rc4 (+3.16 @ 16 depth) with White again free to play the Nd4-Nc6-Nxb4 maneuver to snag the pinned Bishop.|
So, it looks like 30...f5 fails, with a bit of subtle maneuver, to White's intended plan of pinning the Bishop and finding cover for the King afterall.
|Dec-22-05|| ||patzer2: <Lord Osiris> After Sneaky's 30...f5 31.g3 Kf6 32.Kg2 Ke5 33.Kh3 Kf6 34. f4 and your 34...Ke6, White wins immediately with 35. Nd4+! (diagram below).|
click for larger view
[Black to move. If 35...Kf6, White wins with 36. Nc6 ]
|Dec-22-05|| ||TopaLove: I tried 29.♖c4 ♔e7 30.g3 ♔d6 31.♔g2 ♔d5 32.♖d4+ ♔c6 33.♖h4 though I donīt know if it works.|
|Dec-22-05|| ||YouRang: <TopaLove> I gather that 33. Rh4 was to win black's h pawn? While I suspect white that would eventually win in your line, having a passed pawn on the h-file. But it's not as convincing and it kind of lets black "off the hook" (unless you had some other tactic in mind that I'm not seeing).|
|Dec-22-05|| ||TTLump: <Patzer2> in your last post with the diagram following 35.Nd4+, why would Black not play the obvious Kd5 ? After this, Black can easily get his king over to protect and unpin the bishop, but then he still loses of course as white goes on a pawn-munching spree, but then, white could have done that many moves previously.|
|Dec-22-05|| ||MaxxLange: <Gypsy> I was coming back here to post that line! Very nice.|
|Dec-22-05|| ||TTLump: I think I owe an apology to Chess Master. In an earlier post I stated that it's analysis of the position at move 29. was flawed, but after doing some careful analysis of my own and reading all of your posts on this very interesting game, I am not so sure. I have not been able to figure out a sure fire way for white to win the Bishop or even the exchange. No question that he wins by the ensuing pawn buffet in any event however ...|
|Dec-22-05|| ||patzer2: <TTLump> If 35...Kd5, White's plan is to exchange his Knight and Rook for Black's Bishop and Rook. Then as you indicated, with the Black King out of play on the Queenside, White easily wins the King and Pawn ending.|
It's also true White could have gone for the pawn ending win a bit earlier, with for example 30. g4! instead of 30. Rd4! However, the more I look at it, the more I like the 30. Rd4! idea.
|Dec-22-05|| ||Gypsy: <MaxxLange> Sorry to steal your thunder.|
|Dec-23-05|| ||Antipholous: <YouRang> Thanks, I didn't see the rook just staying put. I'm an idiot. I really felt stupid when you said that.|
|Dec-23-05|| ||nuwanda: <Sneaky> and <Lord Osiris> : in your diagramm i cant see a zugzwang, Black can move his King between f6 and e7, is not forced to go to e6 (allowing Nc5). In the moment White plays Rc4 (to make progress in direction of the pinned black bishop with Nd4) Black can play Ke6, followed by Kd5. In addition the move 35.Kh4 from <Lord Osiris> is problematic because of Ra2, threathing mate on h2 and breaking the pin at once.|
I think now that if Black plays this way, 30...f5, White cannot make direct use from the pin and must look for other ways (e.g. winning the h-pawn) to win.
|Dec-23-05|| ||YouRang: <Antipholous: <YouRang> Thanks, I didn't see the rook just staying put. I'm an idiot. I really felt stupid when you said that.> LOL - It's not that bad! I've certainly made my share of kibitzing bloopers!|
|Dec-23-05|| ||Stonewaller2: "After further review" with CM8K it's fairly simple for White to gobble up the opposing ♙s in the ending after 30. ... ♔e6 31. ♘c5+; for example 31. ... ♗xc5 32. ♖xa4 ♗f8 (to stop 33. ♖h4 threatening the ♙h6) 33. ♖a8 ♔e7 34. ♔e2 ♗g7 35. ♖g8 ♗f8 36. ♔f3 ♔e8 37. ♔f4, etc. And as Gypsy points out 31. ... ♔e5 loses quickly as well.|
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