< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 28 OF 28 ·
|Aug-26-10|| ||OhioChessFan: Again, to all those who point to stronger engines finding Be4 easily. If it's such a good move, why in the world did it take DB so long to find it? Why did it go into panic mode? Surely Qb6 is pretty good.|
|Aug-26-10|| ||OhioChessFan: Per the line 45...Qe3 46. Qxd6 Re8 47. Qd7+ Re7 48. Qc6 Qxe4 49. d6|
When did it become the acccepted view that 49...Qd3+ is stronger than 49...Qb1+ ? I can't see how allowing Ra1 (49...Qd3+ 50. Kg1 Re8 51. Ra1) is best for Black.
|Oct-06-10|| ||JamesMazur2: <MartinII>
Thanks to you, I now agree that the game was indeed a draw in the final position. Your line on April 3 convinced me:
45. ... Qe3 46. Qxd6 Re8 47. Qd7+ Re7 48. Qc6 Qxe4 49. d6 Qd3+ 50. Kg1 Re8 51. Ra1 h5 52. Qxb5 Rd8 53. Kh2 h4 54. Qc6 Kg8 55. b5 Qg3+ 56. Kh1 Qxc3 57. Rd1 Qc2 58. Re1 Qd3 59. Re4 Qxd6 60. Qxc4+ Qd5 61. Rxh4 Qxc4 62. Rxc4 Rd1+ 63. Kh2 Rb1 =
I now will refute any supposedly won line for White. Post here if you still think White somehow has a win in the final position.
|Dec-11-10|| ||JamesMazur2: <SugarDom>
I don't see how your FireBird line wins for White...I continue from the end of your given line:
65. Rc6+ Kd5 66. Rc8 Rb1 67. b5 Ke6 68. Rc6+ Kd5 69. Ke3 Re1+ 70. Kd2 Rg1 71. Rc8 e4 72. b6 Rb1 73. Rd8+ Kc5 74. Rh8 Rxb6 75. Rxh5+ Kd6 76. Ra5 Ke6 77. g4 Rc6 78. h5 Rc7 79. Rf5 e3+ 80. Kxe3 Rxc3+ 81. Ke4 Rg3 82. Kf4 Rb3 83. Ra5 Rb4+ 84. Kf3 Rb3+ 85. Kf2 Rb2+ 86. Kg3 Rb3+ 87. Kh4 Rb1 88. Ra6+ Kf7 89. Ra7+ Ke6 90. Kg3 Rb3+ 91. Kf4 Rb4+ 92. Kf3 Rb3+ 93. Kf2 Rb2+ 94. Kg1 Rb1+ 95. Kh2 Rb2+ 96. Kh3 Rb3+ 97. Kg2 Rb2+ 98. Kf1 Rh2 99. Kg1 Rh4 100. Ra4 Ke5 101. Kf2 f5 102. Kg3 Rxg4+ 103. Rxg4 fxg4 104. Kxg4 Kf6 =
If you think White has a win, point out the mistake!
|Feb-13-11|| ||Zahl: JamesMazur2 & MartinII, your 53. Kh2? is wrong. 53. Qb7+ is stronger.|
45. ... Qe3 46. Qxd6 Re8 47. Qd7+ Re7 48. Qc6 Qxe4 49. d6 Qd3+ 50. Kg1 Re8 51. Ra1 h5 52. Qxb5 Rd8 53. Qb7+
Kg8 54. Qe7 Qxd6 55. Qxd6 Rxd6 56. Ra8+ Kf7 57. Rc8 Rd1+ 58. Kh2 Ke7 59. Rxc4
Kd6 60. Kg3 Rb1 61. Rc8 Kd5 62.Kf3 Rf1+ 63. Ke3 Re1+ 64. Kd2 Rg1 65. Kd3 Rd1+
66. Ke2 Rg1 67. g4 hxg4 68. hxg4 Rxg4 69. b5 Kd6 70. c4 Kd7 71. Rc5 Rg2+
72. Kf3 Rb2 73. Rc6 Ra2 74. Ke4 Rd2 75. c5 Rd4+ 76. Ke3 Rd5 77. Kf3 Rd3+
78. Ke2 Rc3 79. Kd2 Rc4 80. Rd6+ Kc7 81.b6+ Kb7 82. Rd7+ Ka8 83. Rd5 e4
84. Ke3 Kb8 85. Rd8+ Kb7 86. Rd7+ Kb8 87. Rc7 Ka8 88. Rxg7 Rxc5 89. b7+ Kb8
90. Kxe4 Re5+ 91. Kf4 Re1 92. Rd7 Re2 93. Rf7 Rf2+ 94. Ke4 Rd2 95. Rxf6 1-0
|Mar-31-11|| ||abstract: 37.Be4 looks like a God move|
|Jun-09-11|| ||DrMAL: In game 1 Deep Blue played with a materialistic style similar to all other games GK ever saw a computer play. In game 2, its style was completely different, baffling GK and causing him to be increasingly exhausted as the game wore on. |
In the film "Game Over" he elaborated on this and stated clearly he thought at the time he was simply going to lose his bishop on d6 so he resigned. While computers are prone to power outages humans are also prone to exhaustion. As GK said, he was exhausted and he blundered in not seeing his simple out, that's all there was to it.
I put this position on Rybka 4.1 and after an hour at d=24 the score is +0.94 then I tried 45.Qd7+ instead only to find the score +2.10 at d=24 apparently a much better move than was played!
Both GK and DB made inaccuracies throughout the game (as would Rybka or anything/anyone else) so who knows how it would have turned out? Analysis is useful for learning but it cannot predict what a player or computer may do. Since the consensus afterwards was that the position was a draw if GK played on it likely would have been agreed to. But he didn't he resigned.
|Dec-01-11|| ||Atking: Looks to me draw even in this last line. 45...Qe3 46.Qxd6 Re8 47.Qd7+ Re7 48.Qc6 Qxe4 49.d6 Qxf5+ 50.Kg1 Rd7 51.Qxb5 Qe6 52.Qc5 Kg6 53.Rc6(Or b5) e4! 54.b5 (Or Rc6 Else 54.Qxc4 QxQ 55.RxQ Kf5 56.Rc6 Ke6 with g6-f5 White King can't help its own pawns on Queen side It's draw) 54...e3 55.Qxc4 Qe5! 56.Rc5 (56.Qg4+ Kh7 57.QxR? e2 Or 56.Qe2 f5 57.c4 Kh7 58.c5 Ra7 59.Ra6 Rb7! =) 56..Qxd6 57.Qe4+ Kf7 58.Qxe3 Qd1+ 59.Kh2 Qd6+ 60.g3 Re7 Black initiative is enough to draw. For if 61.Qd4 Re2+ 62.Kh1 QxQ 63.cxQ Rb2 64.Rc7+ Kg6 65.Rb7 Kf5! 66.Rxg7 Ke4 67.Rg6 f5 68.b6 Rb1+ ~ even with a pawn on h4 (Instead h3) the draw is there. Kh2 Rb2+ Kh3 Rb1 eccetera.|
What will says IBM team if this ending is draw... But if a winning line is some where (Which I doubt a lot) then it was out the border line of Deep Blue calculation.
|Jun-07-12|| ||OhioChessFan: I am now doubting <48...Qxe4> as best for Black in the infamous perpetual line.|
I have 45...Qe3 46. Qxd6 Re8 47. Qd7+ Re7 48. Qc6 <Qf4+>
I haven't seen any other analysis of it. Most of the following seems pretty forced:
49. Bf3 Qc1+ 50. Kf2 Qd2+ 51. Kg1 Qc1+ 52. Kh2 Qf4+ 53. Kh1 Qc1+ 54. Bd1 Qxd1+ 55. Kh2 Qd2 56. d6
I think now Black's best is
56...Re8 57. Ra1 Kf8
click for larger view
Now how does White promote the Pawn without taking the Queen off the crucial long diagonal?
|Jun-13-12|| ||QueentakesKing: Wowwowwow!!! Awesome. Powerful computer.|
|Aug-14-12|| ||LoveThatJoker: Guess-the-Move Final Score:
Deep Blue vs Kasparov, 1997.
YOU ARE PLAYING THE ROLE OF DEEP BLUE.
Your score: 72 (par = 61)
|Dec-31-12|| ||JamesMazur2: <Zahl> Try 60. ...Kd5.|
61. Rc7 Ke4 62. b5 Rb1 63. c4 Kxf5 64. Rxg7 e4 65. Re7 Rb4 66. Rc7
Ke5 67. Kh4 e3 68. Kg3 Kd4 69. Kf3 Rb2 70. b6 Rxb6 71. Rd7+ Kxc4 72. Kxe3
Rb2 73. Kf3 Rb5 74. Kf4 Kc5 75. Rd3 Kc6 76. g3 Re5 77. Rd1 Ra5 78. h4 Rb5
79. Rd4 Rc5 80. Rd3 Ra5 81. Rd2 Ra3 82. Rd1 Ra5 83. Rb1 Ra3 84. Rd1 Ra5 85.
Rd8 Ra4+ 86. Kf3 Ra3+ 87. Kf4 Ra4+ 88. Ke3 Ra3+ 89. Kf4 Ra4= 3-fold
Back from a long hiatus, I want to make a PGN file with many different lines. I'm pretty sure the game is drawn, at this point, though. But it was just a lucky guess by the commentators; this line wasn't analyzed.
|Feb-07-13|| ||RookFile: There is some resemblance here to the way Fischer loaded up on the a file against Spassky in 1992 to win that Ruy Lopez. Kasparov at the time criticized that and said white should have played f4 instead, but that criticism quietly went away. Then, the computer does the same thing to Kasparov.|
|Feb-07-13|| ||G4m3rz: I'm definitely backing up <JamesMazur2> analysis about <Zahl> mistaken 60...Rb1+.|
60...Kd5 is drawing for Black in all variations I've checked. So for example: 45...Qe3 46.Qxd6 Re8 47.Qd7+ Re7 48.Qc6 Qxe4 49.d6 Qd3+ 50.Kg1 Re8 51.Ra1 h5 52.Qxb5 Rd8 53.Qb7+ Kg8 54.Qe7 Qxd6 55.Qxd6 Rxd6 56.Ra8+ Kf7 57.Rc8 Rd1+ 58.Kh2 Ke7 59.Rxc4 Kd6 60. Kg3 Kd5* 61.Rc7 Ke4 62.b5 Rb1 63.c4 Rb4 (instead of 63...Kxf5 <JamesMazur2>) 64.Kh4 Kxf5 65.Kxh5 e4 66.g3 g5 67.Rc5+ Ke6 68.Kg4 Rb3 (66.g4+ Ke5 67.Rxg7 Rxc4 68.Re7+ Kf4 69.Rf7 Rc5+ 70.Kh4 e3 71.Rxf6+ Ke4 72.Re6+ Kf3 73.g5 Rxb5 74.g6 Rb1 75.g7 Rg1 76.Rf6+ Ke4 77.Rf7 e2 78.Kh5 Kd3 79.Rd7+ Ke4 80.Re7+ Kd3 81.Kh6 Rh1 82.h4 Rxh4+ 83.Kg5 Rh1 84.Rd7+ Ke4 85.Re7+ Kd3 86.Rd7+ 1/2-1/2) 69.h4 gxh4 70.gxh4 Rf3 71.Rc6+ Ke5 72.Rc8 f5+ 73.Kh5 Rb3 74.c5 Rxb5 75.Kg5 Rb1 76.Re8+ Kd5 77.Kxf5 Rf1+ 78.Kg4 Re1 79.h5 Rg1+ 80.Kf4 Rf1+ 81.Kg4 Rg1+ 82.Kf4 1/2-1/2
incidentally 56...Kh7 (instead of Kf7) is inferior 57.Rc8 Rd1+ (58.Kh2 g6 59.Rxc4 Rb1 60.g4 h4 61.Kg2 gxf5 62.gxf5 Kh6 63.Rxh4+ Kg5 64.Rc4 Kxf5 65.Kg3 Rg1+ 66.Kf2 Rb1 67.h4 e4!= or 67.Ke3 Re1+ 68.Kd2 Rh1 69.b5 Rh2+ 70.Kd1 Rh1+ 71.Kd2 Rh2+ 72.Kd1 Rh1+ 1/2-1/2) 58.Kf2 g6 59.Rxc4 Rb1 60.g4 hxg4 61.fxg6+ Kxg6 62.hxg4 Kf7 63.Rc6 Ke7 64.Ke2 Rb3 65.Kd2 Rb2+ 66.Kd3 Rb3 67.Ke4
How about 45...Qe3 46.Qxd6 Re8 47.Qd7+ Re7 48.Qc6 Qxe4 49.d6 Qd3+ 50.Kg1 Re8 51.Ra1 h5 52.Qxb5 Rd8 53.Qc6
45...Qe3 46.Qxd6 Re8 47.Qd7+ Re7 48.Qc6 Qxe4 49.d6 Qd3+ 50.Kg1 Re8 51.Ra1 h5 52.Kh2
Do they draw?
|May-23-13|| ||Bobby4life: Seems like Deep blue used some skills of Bobby Fischer in Ruy Lopez opening To crush kasparov.. The doubled rooks on Queen side, The Queen infiltration on the 7th rank.. All of theses tactics was bobby's weapons.|
|Dec-08-13|| ||thegoodanarchist: Maybe it was Fischer who was selecting candidates for Deep Blue!|
IBM's market value went up 15% the day after Kasparov resigned. And although they had agreed to turn over their log files to the arbiter at the end of the match, IBM reneged on this agreement.
Also IBM had guards outside their computer room in the building where the match was held.
Obviously they didn't want anyone to walk by and see Fischer editing the candidate move list! And they didn't want the arbiter to discover this after the match.
|Aug-11-14|| ||Dionyseus: It turns out that 37.Be4 isn't even the best move. 37.Qb6 is better. |
After 37.Be4 Kasparov should have played 37...Rcb8, stopping white's queen from invading. Play might continue 38.Ra6 Qd8 39.Qa2 Rxa6 40.Qxa6 Bc7 41.Qe6+ Kh7 42.Ra6 Rb6 43.Rxb6 Bxb6+
click for larger view
And black should be able to hold this.
|Aug-19-14|| ||mendi80: About Zahl analysis and JamesMazur2, G4m3rz response.|
What about: 60.Rc8! Rb1 61.Kg3 Rb2 62.Kf3 h4 63.Rc4 Rc2 64.b5 Rb2 65.Rc6+ Kd5 66.Rc8 Rc3 67.Kg4 Ke4 68.Rc4+ Kd5 69.Rc7 Rxb5 70.c4+ Kd6 71.Rxg7 Rc5 72.Kxh4 e4 73.Kg4 Re5 74.Ra7 e3 75.Ra6+ and white win( engine say +3.10 )
|Nov-02-14|| ||first25plus5: I agree that 60.Rc8 looks very good. Thanks to mendi80. (It looks like there is a typing mistake in Black's move 66, should read 66....Rb3 as there is a pawn on c3.)|
|Nov-02-14|| ||Patanjali: At the end of the day, it would seem that IBM were prepared to cheat to turn the match in their favor. |
Key points of interest:
-Not granting the champ a rematch (when he gave them the courtesy of a rematch immediately after the '96 match)
-Not giving a demonstration to prove that DB could find/play the controversial moves on its own
-Dismantling DB immediately after the match
-Refusing to provide printouts of DB's "thinking" regarding the moves Kasparov thought were questionable.
-The 15% increase in stock value immediately following the match
-Claiming it was all for scientific R&D, but then winning and withdrawing from further "R&D"
-Employing Russian security to eavesdrop on Kasparov and his advisers/seconds
Conclusion? IBM cheated.
|Nov-03-14|| ||AylerKupp: <<Patanjali> Conclusion? IBM cheated.>|
Uncannily similar to the Spassky – Fischer 1972 WC match:
Key points of interest:
- Fischer not granting Spassky a rematch.
- Fischer not giving a demonstration to prove that he could force a draw after 29...Bxh2 in the first game of the match.
- Effectively retiring from play immediately after the match.
- Refusing to play in front of cameras when he had signed a contract to do so.
- The 100% increase in the prize fund prior to the start of the match in order for Fischer to play in the match, after previously agreeing to the prize fund.
- Claiming that he played for the good of chess, but then winning and withdrawing from further "play".
Conclusion? Fischer cheated. ;-)
|Nov-03-14|| ||first25plus5: 45....Qe3 46.Qxd6 Re8 47.Qd7+ Re7 48.Qc6 Qxe4 49.d6 Qd3+ 50.Kg1 Re8 51.Ra1 h5 52.Qxb5 Rd8 53.Qb7+ Kg8 54.Qe7 Qxd6 55.Qxd6 Rxd6 56.Ra8+ Kf7 57.Rc8 Rd1+ 58.Kh2 Ke7 59.Rxc4 Kd6.|
My conclusion on the 60.Rc8 line is that Black should actually now play 60....Rc1.
Then from what I have analysed, play 'should' proceed 61.Kg3 Kd5 62.b5 Rb1 63.Kf3 Rb3 64.g4.
I am looking at the 60.Kg3 line and see if I can make any contribution there, as well as the preference as to which one is better.
|Nov-05-14|| ||first25plus5: With regards to 60.Kg3 Kd5 61.Rc7 Ke4 62.b5 Rb1 63.c4 Kxf5 64.Rxg7 e4 etc, all I can add is Black's option of 64...Ke4 65.Rd7 Rb4.
Anyway I have all the necessary lines condensed onto a two page file. For those interested they can email me by looking at my profile email address. Cheers.|
|Nov-09-14|| ||first25plus5: I went back some moves and had a look at the line 49….Qxf5+ 50.Kg1 Rd7 51.Qxb5 Qe6 52.Qc5 Kg6 53.Rc6 e4 etc etc. I think White should now play 54.Qd4 then what would follow would be 54....e3 55.Qxc4 Qe5 56.Qg4+ Kh7 57.Qd4 Qxd4 58.cxd4.|
|Nov-02-15|| ||kamagong24: https://youtu.be/gDe-uHsEMn8|
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