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< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 4 OF 4 ·
Later Kibitzing> |
| Oct-25-09 | | ComboKal: <David2009> Your link still has the knight at d7 with white to play. Can you correct this? |
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Oct-25-09
 | | OBIT: <johnlspouge>I see you managed to get another post in just ahead of me, which shows that Bxf7+ works if you continue O-O-O! and Rd6! Yeah, 12. Bxf7 appears to be best against optimum play. However, the lines after 12. O-O-O are more forcing, making it easier for us feeble-minded humans to work them out in a game situation. And, of course, whenever there is a queen sac in a position, everybody gets too excited to consider anything else. :) |
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Oct-25-09
 | | RandomVisitor: After 6.e4:
1: Mark Taimanov - Lev Polugaevsky, Leningrad 27.SU-ch 1960
click for larger viewAnalysis by Rybka 3 : <21-ply> <1. (0.23): 6...Be7> 7.Qxc4 a6 8.Qd3 0-0 9.Be2 c5 10.e5 Nd5 11.Nxd5 exd5 12.0-0 h6 13.Qc3 c4 14.a4 Qb6 15.a5 Qb5 16.Bd2 2. (0.28): 6...a6 7.Bxc4 Rb8 8.Qc2 b5 |
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Oct-25-09
 | | David2009: <ComboKal: <12.O-O-O> is an extraordinary move and seems to result in the best line. [snip]I still havn't figured out the flaw with the line I would have played: <12.Bxf7+ Kxf7 13.Qf4+ Ke8 14.O-O...> How does black defend? > Crafty plays 14...Nf6.
click for larger viewOver to you with the link below. ComboKal v Crafty 15? http://www.chessvideos.tv/endgame-t...
Good luck!
POSTSCRIPT: I had posted this earlier but with a wrong Crafty link (i.e. position with N at d7 and not at f6). Apologies to anyone who has followed it and wondered why the win was so easy. Explanation: Black had missed a move! |
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Oct-25-09
| | David2009: Posts from <OBIT> and <johnlsouge> suggest strengthening <ComboKal>'s variation 12 Bxf7+ Kxf7 13 Qf4+ Ke8 with 14 0-0-0 instead of 0-0.
After 14... bxc2+ (consensus best Black first move in reply) we reach
click for larger view
I leave it to interested readers to test this out with the Crafty link below (ComboKal variation with 0-0-0, 15?)
http://www.chessvideos.tv/endgame-t...
Enjoy! |
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Oct-25-09
 | | agb2002: Black is two pawns ahead and threatens 12... Qxa4, 12... b5 and 12... cxb2. However, since White has a considerable advantage in development, the black king lacks legal moves, White's LSB touches f7 and the knight can fork the black queen and f7 the most obvious move is 12.Ne5, threatening 13.Nxc6 and 13.Bxf7#: A) 12... Nxe5 13.Bb5 Bd7 14.Bxc6 Bxc6 15.Qc2 cxb2 16.Rb1 (16.Qxb2 Nd3+) Bxg2 17.Qe2 f6 18.Rg1 Bd5 19.f4 and White looks better because his pieces are much more active than Black's. B) 12... Qe4+ 13.Kf1 Qxe5 14.Re1 Qxe1+ 15.Kxe1 f6 (15... cxb2 16.Qe4+ Ne5 17.Qxe5+ Be6 18.Qxb2) 16.Bc1 with a similar conclusion. I don't have time to go deeper today. |
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Oct-25-09
| | David2009: <johnlspouge: A Mom-and-Pop Toga evaluation gives [snip] 12.<Bxf7+> Kxf7 13.Qf4+ Ke8 14.0-0-0 cxb2+ 15.Kxb2 Nf6 16.Rhe1+
Be7 17.Rd6 Qb5+ 18.Ka1 Rf8 19.Bxf6 gxf6 20.Rxf6 Rg8 21.Rf7 Qd7 22.Qe4 Qe6 23.Rxe7+ Kxe7 24.Qxh7+ Kf6
25.Rxe6+ Bxe6 26.Qxb7 Rad8. Humans can improve near the end of the complete computer variation.> Sorry to rain on
Toga's parade, but Crafty plays 15 ...Qb6+ and I can't find a way through as White, e.g. 16 Ka1 Nf6 17 Rhe8+ Kf7 and now what?
click for larger view
The alternative 15 Kb1 fares no better: 15...Nf6 16 Rhe1+ Be7 17 Rd6 Bf5+! 18 Kxb2 Qd7. 
click for larger viewLink repeated for convenience: http://www.chessvideos.tv/endgame-t... |
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Oct-25-09
| | David2009: <agb2002: [snip] the most obvious move is 12.Ne5 [if]12... Nxe5 13.Bb5 Bd7 14.Bxc6 Bxc6 15.Qc2 cxb2 16.Rb1 (16.Qxb2 Nd3+)
Bxg2 17.Qe2 f6 18.Rg1 Bd5 19.f4 and White looks better >
Interesting analysis, 17 Qe2! is much better than 17 Rg8? (my own thought). How about 18 ...Bf3 instead of 18...Bd5?
click for larger view |
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Oct-25-09
 | | johnlspouge: More Mom-and-Pop evaluations by Toga, with the usual caveats (below). 12.<Bxf7+> Kxf7 13.Qf4+ Ke8 14.0-0-0 cxb2+ 15.Kxb2 Qb6+ [ply 14/54 time 00:33 value +2.42]
16.Ka1 Nf6 17.Rhe1+ Kf7 18.Qc4+ Be6 19.Rxe6 Qxe6 20.Ne5+ Ke7 21.Qxc5+ Ke8 22.Qb5+ Nd7 23.Rxd7 Qxe5+ 24.Qxe5+ Kxd7 25.Qb5+ Ke6 26.Qb3+ Kd6 27.Qxb7 Re8 28.Qxa7 Re1+ 29.Kb2 Re2+ 30.Kb3 [ply 15/74 time 03:23 value +2.75]
16.Ka1 Nf6 17.Rhe1+ Kf7 18.Qc4+ Kg6 19.Ne5+ Kxg5 20.Nf7+ Kg6 21.Nxh8+ Kh6 22.Rd8 g6 23.Rxf8 Qb4 24.Qxb4 cxb4 25.Rxf6 Bf5 26.g4 Bxg4 27.Nf7+ Kg7 John Nunn keeps a chess computer cross-table http://www.husvankempen.de/nunn/, which rates Toga at 2807, but does not mention Crafty. I own an old version of Rybka (which Nunn rates as best), but prefer Toga, which is freeware, because it solved some Sunday problems faster than my version of Rybka. |
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| Oct-25-09 | | WhiteRook48: I tried 12 Qa5 |
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| Oct-25-09 | | Bleepbloop1: although i had seen 0-0 and 0-0-0! as potential solutions, I was intrigued by 12.Bb5?, then I realized black had qe6+! 13. kf1?! cxb2!! 14.rad1 Qxd1+ 15.Nxd1 b1=Q :D however, 13.kd1!? seems a bit stronger for white, probably also winning. Very interesting position! |
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| Oct-25-09 | | gofer: Well, I have looked at a few things, but nothing seems quite as forcing as Bxf7+ and since getting through most of the typing of this post I realise that really this was quite an easy find... ...probably easier than last Friday's MOTD! 12 Bxf7+ Kxf7
13 Qf4+ ...
13 ... Nf6 14 Ne5+ winning the queen
13 ... Kg8 14 Qc4+ winning the queen and then mating
13 ... Kg6 14 Nh4+ Kh5 15 g4#
So that leaves just two possible moves, both put black in deep trouble. 13 ... Ke6
13 ... Ke8
The white bishop and queen are acting as noose round the black king's neck... ...time to kick away the chair he's standing on... 14 O-O-O!
This is much more active and threatening than O-O which does free up e1 for one of the rooks, but if white plays O-O-O then Rhe1+ is coming and there is already a rook on d1 further tightening the noose! Black can play cxb2+, but white just plays Kb1 and now uses the pawn as a defense! If Black delays playing cxb2+ until later then actually Kxb2 followed by Ka1 may be more appropriate. If Black plays c2 then Rhe1+ is now horrible for black... So the only real question is what defenses has black got??? There are lots of permutations and all of them lose a huge amount of material, so I think black resigns... I have no inclination to look at this in more detail, right now. I hope I haven't missed a really good defense! Time to check... |
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Oct-25-09
| | David2009: <johnlspouge: More Mom-and-Pop evaluations by Toga> Thanks for these a good refutation of Qg6+. Crafty plays 18...Be6 instead of 18...Kg6 and matches Toga (ply 14/54) move for move up till move 25: thus 12.<Bxf7+> Kxf7 13.Qf4+ Ke8 14.0-0-0 cxb2+ 15.Kxb2 Qb6+
16.Ka1 Nf6 17.Rhe1+ Kf7 18.Qc4+ Be6 19.Rxe6 Qxe6 20.Ne5+ Ke7 21.Qxc5+ Ke8 22.Qb5+ Nd7 23.Rxd7 Qxe5+ 24.Qxe5+ Kxd7 25.Qb5+ Ke6 26 Qb3+ Ke5!? (Kd6 - Toga) 
click for larger viewSo far I have played Toga's moves. Now I am on my own: 27 f4+ Kd6 28 Qxb7 Re8 29 Qxa7 Re4 30 g3 h6 31 Bd8 Re1+ 32 Kb2 Re2+
33 Kc3 Re1 34 Kd2 Rh1 35 Qd4+ wins the exchange and another pawn 1-0 (adjudication). 
click for larger viewWikipedia has an article on Crafty. The on-line endgame trainer I use is a cut-down version (no castling or en passant captures) and is rapid-play so is weaker than the full version. [Similarly, Toga 14/54 is weaker than full Toga.] The endgame trainer is very quick, free to use, easy to set positions up in and fun to play against. My current playing strength is around 1700 so Crafty must be at least 300 - 400 better. Creating a link in a 'White to play and win' game is very quick, because one can cut-and-paste the FEN position from the Chessgames.com game. You can also try your luck at old chestnuts (like winning with K+Q against K+R). |
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| Oct-25-09 | | gofer: Now I would like to say that I saw the following...
12 Bxf7+ Kxf7
13 Qf4+ Ke8
14 O-O-O cxb2
15 Kxb2 Qb6+
16.Ka1 Nf6
17.Rhe1+ Kf7
18.Qc4+ Be6
19.Rxe6 Qxe6
20.Ne5+ Ke7
21.Qxc5+ Ke8
22.Qb5+ Nd7
23.Rxd7 Qxe5+
24.Qxe5+
At which point a "pro" would have turned the advantage into a win. But I would be lieing. But its nice to see that I wasn't completely "insane". Or at the very least, I am not the only one in the "looney bin"... |
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Oct-25-09
| | johnlspouge: < <gofer> wrote: [snip] at the very least, I am not the only one in the "looney bin"... > Hi, <gofer>.
Now, repeat after me, 1,000,000 times:
All work and no play makes Jack a dull boy.
All work and no play makes Jack a dull boy.
All work and no play makes Jack a dull boy.
All work and no play makes Jack a dull boy.
All work and no play makes Jack a dull boy.
...
:) |
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| Oct-25-09 | | JG27Pyth: Sign me up for Bxf7... and JohnLSpouge, Toga II is no longer freeware engine king IMO... <Stockfish> is superior! The king is dead, long live the king. |
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Oct-25-09
| | johnlspouge: < <JG27Pyth> wrote: [snip] and JohnLSpouge, Toga II is no longer freeware engine king IMO... <Stockfish> is superior! > Hi and thanks, <Pyth>. Probably, however, I will not soon notice the rating difference between Stockfish's 3059 and Toga's 3009 :) |
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| Oct-25-09 | | LIFE Master AJ: <(Knightstale22)>
My analysis was done with Fritz ... its clearly indicated as well. " - Fritz 11." (I never intended to anyone think that I did that in my haed.) I GUESSED that 12.0-0-0 was the answer. However, I was NOT 100% sure it would work. This was the main reason that I quickly analyzed the game. Its an amazing game, by the way. Thanks to the CG staff for bringing it to our attention. |
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| Oct-25-09 | | MaxxLange: <Its an amazing game, by the way. Thanks to the CG staff for bringing it to our attention.> plus one
what a beautiful move, 12 0-0-0!!, giving up the Queen, with the theme of VACATION of the e1 square, threatening the deadly Re1+ |
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| Oct-25-09 | | Athamas: I'm not sure of anybody that could do all those variations without a board... I usually decide on a select few moves in my head and move them on my board at home to make sure it's correct and keep moving if I don't see anything decisive initially as it's a puzzle. |
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Oct-27-09
 | | patzer2: In going back over last Sunday's puzzle (12. ?), the revelation by <johnlspouge> that there are not one but two possible solutions in 12.0-0-0!! or 12. Bxf7+!! continues to amaze me. Even more stunning is the strong possibility that Taimanov move is inferior to 12. Bxf7+!!, based on Toga analysis approaching "best play." Of couse a strong move is only as good as a player's ability to calculate the winning follow-up. In this case, I think 12. 0-0-0!! is the best practical OTB move, while 12. Bxf7+!! might be the best choice in a correspondence or computer assisted match. |
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Oct-28-09
| | patzer2: After several days of playing it out against Fritz, I've come to the conclusion 12. Bxf7+!! is better. Here's some analysis based on an over night run and a lot of follow-up move-by-move with Fritz: 12. Bxf7+!! Kxf7 13. Qf4+ Ke8 (13... Kg6 14. Nh4+ Kh5 15. g4; 13... Ke6 14. O-O-O  ; 13... Nf6 14. Ne5+ ; 13... Kg8 14. Qc4+ Qd5 15. Qxd5#) 14. O-O-O cxb2+ 15. Kxb2 Nf6!? 16. Rhe1+ Be7 17. Rd6 Qb5+ 18. Ka1 Rf8 19. Bxf6! gxf6 (19... Rf7 20. Ng5 gxf6 21. Nxf7 Kxf7 22. Rxe7+ Kxe7 23. Qxf6+ Ke8 24. Rd8#) 20. Rxf6 Rxf6 (20... Rg8 21. Rf7 Qd7 22. Ng5 Kd8 23. Rfxe7 Qxe7 24. Rxe7 Kxe7 25. Qe5+ ) 21. Qxf6 Qd7 22. Qh8+ Kf7 23. Ne5+ . |
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| Dec-07-09 | | Lovuschka: After considering all analyses here, we can come to this conclusion:
12.Bxf7+ was the best move, winning the game in the attack against the black king.
12.O-O-O was good but could lead to a difficult endgame after the best black defense. Also it seems that 12.Se5? Sxe5!! 13.Bb5 Bd7 14.Bxc6 Bxc6 leads to a game where black has good chances for a draw - if not more. Now the "wrong" player sacrificed the queen... The queen sacrifice of this game first appeared in a simultan game by H. Müller 1934. Black took the queen there and after 12...Qxa4 13.Rhe1+ Be7 14.Rxe7+ Kf8 15.Rxf7+ Kg8 16.Rfxd7+ Qxc4 17.Rd8+ Ke7 18.Se5+ Ke6 19.Sxc4 white was a piece up. Jakov Neistadt says in his book about queen sacrifices, Taimanov later wrote that he found the combination in his game, i.e. he didn't know the predecessor. |
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| Feb-07-11 | | mastermind7994: Interesting game..not sure why I haven't heard of this game before. |
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| Apr-07-11 | | Llawdogg: Wow! 12 0-0-0!! was fantastic. Was the ghost of Paul Morphy visiting Mark Taimanov 100 years after his heyday? Brilliant game! |
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< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 4 OF 4 ·
Later Kibitzing> |
sac: 18.Rxe7