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Rudolf Spielmann vs Ernst Gruenfeld
Karlsbad (1929), Karlsbad CZE, rd 1, Jul-31
Queen's Gambit Declined: Queen's Knight Variation (D31)  ·  1-0
Move:
Last:

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Given 20 times; par: 35 [what's this?]

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sac: 21.Bxg7 PGN: download | view | print Help: general | java-troubleshooting

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Kibitzer's Corner
< Earlier Kibitzing  · PAGE 3 OF 3 ·  Later Kibitzing>
Nov-29-07  MostlyAverageJoe: <YouRang> I disagree with your last post (but then again I prompted you to it by my inaccurate statement about writing off the knight).

Look at the 20...e5 line. It does not give up the knight, it exchanges the knight for a bishop, and leaves black in much less messy postion than 20...Ne7.

The 'give up the knight' line (20...Bxe4) might or might not be better. I'd have to do a deep analysis on it.

Nov-29-07  nimzo knight: <Black's pawn push f7-f6 prevents mate if the bishop is not sacked first.> How about the line I mentioned before.
<22. Bxe6+ Kh8 23. h6 now if 23..fxg5 24.hxg7#.>
Nov-29-07
Premium Chessgames Member
  YouRang: <MostlyAverageJoe> I see your point, although I'm sure so sure that you really disagree with me. :-)

My point was simply that there are some positions where the meaning of "best move" becomes blurry, and this game might be an example of such if, for instance, 20...Bxe4 (giving up the knight) is indeed "better" (in the sense of prolonging the game) than 20...Ne7 (preventing the immediate loss of decisive material).

For this game, I do think that 20...e4 is the most attractive move for white (I regret not seeing it myself), as it salvages material AND prolongs the game. Of course, it seems to give white some huge positional advantages, including some terrifying passed pawns and a potent rook battery on the d-file.

Nov-29-07  fernando rodenas: h5 ? e5 and the atack is down
Nov-29-07
Premium Chessgames Member
  benveniste: <xrt999>, After 20. h5 Bxe4, 21. hxg6 hxg6, white can just play 22. f3. If 22. ... Bxf3?, 23. Qe5 gets pretty ugly for black.

Instead, black plays 22. ... Bd5 and I don't see anything better for white than exchanging white bishops and consolidating the advantage.

BTW, The game of the day pun left me "Steam"ing.

Nov-29-07  DukeAlba: I'm surprised to have solved Thursday considering that I failed to solve Tuesday and Wednesday. While I am not exactly proud of solving the uber-easy Monday puzzle I am proud that I am 2-2 on my first week of puzzle solving!

And regardless of whether or not black should have played 20. e5 is irrelevant in my opinion (if not for the purpose of analyzing alternatives) because in the end black either goes down a knight or loses the game.

I agree with <MostlyAverage Joe> when he says <Interesting: 20...Ne7 is not even one of the best 8 moves. Apparently black should've just written off the knight and putter on, hoping for a reverse blunder>

Nov-29-07
Premium Chessgames Member
  YouRang: <MostlyAverageJoe> *sigh* typo corrections:

<although I'm sure so sure that you really disagree with me.>

should be

<although I'm <not> so sure that you really disagree with me.>

and

<For this game, I do think that 20...e4 is the most attractive move for white>

should be:

<For this game, I do think that 20...e4 is the most attractive move for <black>>

Nov-29-07  ruzon: <You Rang> You mean it should be (and you're not the only one):

<For this game, I do think that 20...<e5> is the most attractive move for <black>>.

I did not see 20. ... e5 myself, which is worse than typing <e4>. In fact, I couldn't even see that 23. ... h6+ was a ton better than hxg6. Visualizing pawn moves is hard for me too.

I was also distracted by the potential Bh1 after 20. ... Bxe4, since it threatens Qg2#, but that threat is blunted by Kf1.

Nov-29-07  MostlyAverageJoe: < YouRang: typo corrections> Curiously, I noticed the typos only after you pointed them out. The corrections agree with what I thought you wrote :-)
Nov-29-07
Premium Chessgames Member
  YouRang: <ruzon> Oh good, I made TWO typos in the same sentence -- far more efficient that way. :-(

Yes, I noticed black's threat of ...Bf1 also, but it seems that white can maintain enough offensive pressure (without opening the a8-h1 diagonal) such that black won't have time to go there.

Nov-29-07  MostlyAverageJoe: <YouRang: threat of ...Bf1>

You mean Bh1, right :-)

Nov-29-07
Premium Chessgames Member
  YouRang: Aaauugh!
Nov-29-07
Premium Chessgames Member
  DarthStapler: I looked at 21. Bxg7 but I didn't see the continuation, I kept looking at 21. Qg5 f6 Bxe6+ but I couldn't find anything afterwards.

I saw the first move at least and the theme (sort of), so I give myself 1/4 of a point

Nov-29-07  tarananakon: i do not understand, why not 20. h5 - e5 ?? this blocks white queen bishop and seems also the immediate attack
Nov-29-07  Crowaholic: <YouRang: Black must play 21...f6 to thwart both threats, but then I have 22. Bxe6+ Kh8, followed by 22. h6!! My queen is safe since 22...fxg5 is met by 23. hxg7#.

I thought this was so pretty that it HAD to be the solution, even though I couldn't see a clear way to win after 22...Ng6. :-(>

Funny... I found the same line as you and nimzo knight. According to preliminary (read: unreliable :-) ) engine analysis, White seems to have a decent advantage in this line (ca. +2.5 points, a possible continuation is 24. hxg7+ Kxg7 25. f3 Qe7 26. Qf5 ...), but converting it will likely be much harder than after the bishop sacrifice as played in the game.

Nov-29-07  JG27Pyth: <My point was simply that there are some positions where the meaning of "best move" becomes blurry, and this game might be an example of such if, for instance, 20...Bxe4 (giving up the knight) is indeed "better" (in the sense of prolonging the game) than 20...Ne7 (preventing the immediate loss of decisive material).>

Hey, You Rang... I agree with you in general principle, but I don't think this position is a good illustration of your 'blurry' point.

20...Ne7 doesn't "save decisive material," it hangs the game... after bxg7 black has no chances whatsoever. Whereas both 20...e5 and particularly 20...Bxe4 give black a _prayer_. Bxe4 gives black an asymmetrical situation where he's got 2 pawns for the Knight and enough complexity that a blunder is at least possible. Certainly, given enough time, I could find a losing blunder for white in that position, I'm sure of it.

Pyth

Nov-29-07  zealouspawn: i think that after ..e5, white moves Bc5, after which black has to move ..Ne7, then white plays Qg5, threatening to take the knight or play h6
Nov-29-07
Premium Chessgames Member
  dzechiel: <zealouspawn: i think that after ..e5, white moves Bc5, after which black has to move ..Ne7, then white plays Qg5, threatening to take the knight or play h6>

After 20 h5 e5 21 Bc5 Ne7 22 Qg5 Rfe8 23 h6 Ng6 I think black is getting away.

Nov-29-07  tarananakon: h6 is not a real threat due to 23- ..g6, i think it is a nice move to play 20- ..e5, well, maybe it has some trick i missed
Nov-29-07  Crowaholic: As promised, my previous computer-assisted analysis was unreliable. ;-) I looked at this line again and after 21. Qg5 f6 22. Bxe6+ Kh8 23. h6 Ng6 24. hxg7+ Qxg7, White doesn't seem to have that much of an advantage.
Nov-29-07  GannonKnight: Four for four! I think that black can squirm away with 20. ... e5, but it still winds up being a pretty decisive lead for white.
Nov-29-07  zealouspawn: maybe we're just underestimating how terrible 20 h5 ..e5 21 hxg6 exd4 22 gxf7+ (or maybe Bxf7+) ..Kh8 22 Rxd4 would be for black. Or perhaps there's something stronger.
Nov-29-07  znprdx: nice order of attack sequence, even better spoiler.
Oct-08-11
Premium Chessgames Member
  jessicafischerqueen: <Spielmann> was awarded a Brilliancy Prize for this game.
Jul-06-12  Six66timesGenius: <jessicafischerqueen: <Spielmann> was awarded a Brilliancy Prize for this game.> is this realy happend Man Jessica?
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