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Zappa (Computer) vs Crafty (Computer)
WCCC (2005), Reykjavik, rd 10, Aug-20
Semi-Slav Defense: Stoltz Variation. Shabalov Attack (D45)  ·  1-0
ANALYSIS [x]

FEN COPIED

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Kibitzer's Corner
< Earlier Kibitzing  · PAGE 3 OF 3 ·  Later Kibitzing>
Feb-08-08  hovik2003: I must be a kind of machine-head because on first look on position I went for 43.Re1 then after exchange on e5 I saw Ba2+ and Rd8.
Feb-08-08  blummenstuhl: I saw 43.b4 and then thought that this is much too simple for friday. So I spent a long time thinking about complicated couterattacks to b4. There are none so I didnīt find any.
Feb-08-08  just a kid: I found 43.Re1 considering 43...Rxe1 44.Qg7#,so any good Black move and then 44.Rxe5 44...Qxe5.(Not Rxe5 because of 45.Qc8#)Then 45.Ba2+ Kh8(forced)Then 46.Rd8.I agree this was way to easy for a Friday.CG.com has to be thinking something up.
Feb-08-08  just a kid: Our Crafty gets hammered.Sigh...
Feb-08-08  znprdx: So <MAJ> I had the 2nd winning move of the 22 you listed. My line went 43.Bd2+ Kh8 44.R[7]d5 Nc6!? 45.Re1 this makes 3 attackers 3 defenders on the e5 Rook ...I timed out since I couldn't see how to continue...given it is then Black with the move. In blitz in mutual time pressure it's hard not to be tempted by Rxh7+ at some point once the K is at h8
Feb-08-08  efrain chavez: I see mate in 6: 43Ba2+ Kh8 44 Rd8 Qe7 45 Rxe8 Qxe8 46 Rd8 Qxd8 (black can "escape" mate here by giving up the queen) 47 Qxe5+ Qf6 48 Qxf6++
Feb-08-08  randallbsmith: Hey Mostly (pardon the first name basis), thanks for that dump of all 50 possibilities! For some reason, its simultaneously hysterical and fascinating!
Feb-08-08
Premium Chessgames Member
  kevin86: I didn't take much time on this and found 43 ♖h1 and 43 ♕c7. ♗oth are solid moves and will probably win easily. I missed the text move that wins quickly by force.

If the idea of this puzzle is to win,then many roads lead to Rome,but if the idea is to find the BEST move,then the text move 43 ♖e1-a brilliant x-ray skewer,is the only solution.

Feb-08-08
Premium Chessgames Member
  patzer2: For today's difficult Friday puzzle solution, the computer Zappa beats Crafty with an amusing pinning combination, initiated with 43. Re1!
Feb-08-08  achieve: R1d5 was my first hunch and it looks to be enough... It pins the e5-Rook a second time towards the Black Queen and attacks the N on a5... Must be winning.

But I see Re1 was more efficient.

Feb-08-08  zb2cr: Put me down with 43. Ba2+. Analysis presented by <Alphastar> pretty much parallels my thinking.
Feb-08-08
Premium Chessgames Member
  YouRang: <griga262><in the light of <MostlyAverageJoe>'s analysis, can I count this puzzle as solved if I picked 43.Qc7?>

The question often comes up, "what constitutes 'solving' the puzzle". Currently, the answer prescribed by <chessgames.com> is "find the best move".

Unfortunately, that's not a very practical answer. It's not always clear how to even define 'best' move.

Is it which move wins the most material? Is it the move that wins in the fewest number of moves? Is it the move that convinces your opponent to resign soonest? Such ideas suffer from being either impractical or too vague. Computer evals are really no basis for determining this. At what ply count is the computer's answer definitive? There are some positions where computers generally fail to find the best move at all.

There really is no such rule that makes sense in all cases. So, FWIW, I decided some time ago that I would consider it solved based on this idea:

The given position has some "best possible result" (win or draw), but it's usually not clear how to achieve that result. <This lack of clarity is what makes it a puzzle>. I consider the problem solved if I can find a way to bring sufficient clarity to the position, so that the "best possible result" is clearly attainable.

<So, to (finally) answer your question>:

You don't really solve a puzzle by 'picking' a move -- you must find a line (allowing for various defenses) that leads to a position that is clearly won. If you found a line beginning with 43.Qc7 that leads to a clearly won game, then yes, you solved it. :-)

Feb-08-08  EdwardChisam: I saw Ba2+ winning, and all of it's ramifications, in about 5 seconds. I didn't think of Re1 first, though.
Feb-08-08  wals: Another notation of mental mumbles
so many possibilities
43.Rd7 x h7...K x h7 44.Rd1-h1+...Kg8
45.Bb1-a2+ with refutations
43.Bb1-a2+...Kg8-h8 44.Rd1-h1 seems the go
PM =
Nowhere near it. Leave these notes for future ref.
Feb-08-08
Premium Chessgames Member
  DarthStapler: I saw Ba2+ first
Feb-08-08  znprdx: <YouRang: This lack of clarity is what makes it a puzzle> Good Stuff! In this case we have <MAJ>'s computer evaluating the clarity of this game between computers...don't you just love the irony?

Re1 is exquisitely to the point- the other 21 ways to win are in effect rendered irrelevant. I hang my head in shame as should all of us who didn't get it. This was about as perfect a solution set can be.

I am curious as to what >Zappa< would have played as Black (against itself in effect...hmmm) and at what critical point to secure at least a draw - after all you would think that 2 connected passed pawns would be a crush.

Feb-08-08
Premium Chessgames Member
  InspiredByMorphy: I like seeing a computer game in the puzzle of the day. I missed 41.Re1 thinking the much weaker 41.R1d5 was the answer.
Feb-08-08  Tomlinsky: <InspiredByMorphy: I like seeing a computer game in the puzzle of the day. I missed 41.Re1 thinking the much weaker 41.R1d5 was the answer.>

The thing is, from an accuracy of solution perspective you can feel your choice is much weaker. But this was a game in progress and most of these puzzles are different from true compositions and used to test what you would play in a particular position.

If your processes led you to a solution that you understand winning then from a practical point of view you have achieved your aim. The game is won and you understand how to win it. Some solutions from games in puzzles presented like this, imo, can be appoached from a purist level and some not. I wouldn't call understanding how to proceed and win with lines starting 41.R1d5 as failure personally. Finding practical solutions in a game situation is equally important as concrete lines at times.

Feb-08-08  Aurora: <43. R1d5> There's more than one way to skin a cat.
Feb-08-08  LivBlockade: I spent most of my time looking at 43. Re1 but could not find an answer to 43...Nc6!? - then I saw 43. R1d5 (threatening Qxa5) and was confident that this was the answer. Those who chose 43. Re1 - did you have an answer for 43...Nc6? I must be missing something simple.
Feb-08-08
Premium Chessgames Member
  johnlspouge: <LivBlockade>: "Those who chose 43. Re1 - did you have an answer for 43...Nc6?"

This is what I would call a [really] good question. It is late, and because I chose 43.R1d5, a move I justified almost completely (I missed 43...Qc1), I asked Toga II 1.3.1 to look at

43.Re1 Nc6

My oracle said

44.Qc4+ R8e6 45.Qxe6+ Rxe6 46.Rxe6 Qd8 47.Rxd8+ Nxd8 48.Re8+ Kf7 49.Rxd8

I wonder how many people posting 43.Re1 could find the winning line you missed. It is just a casual question, of course...

Feb-08-08  znprdx: <johnlspouge:> Did you see my Ba2+ line - where I also found Nc6 - Any answer to my queries - particularly the last one?
Feb-09-08
Premium Chessgames Member
  zenpharaohs: I see:

43 Ba2+ Kh8
44 Bf7

Black is up the creek, but he has choice of poison

44 ... Qe3
45 R7d3 Qc5
46 Qxc5 Rxc5
47 Bxe8

and white is up rook and bishop to knight and pawn. Alternatively black has

44 ... Rf8
45 Rh1 Qf6
46 Bxg6

and black's imbecilic rooks leave the queen overloaded. With no bullets left, it's time to start throwing the furniture

46 ... Nb3+
47 Qxb3 Qxg6
48 Qc3

white reapplies the headlock

48 ... Rfe8
49 Re1 Qf5
50 Rxe5 Qxe5
51 Rd8

black can transpose the follwing exchange, but it come to

52 Kg7 Rxe8
53 Qxc3 bxc3

white is up a rook with an easily won endgame.

So I was somewhat miffed to see that Rybka does not like my 43 Ba+ as much as it likes:

43 Re1 Qf6

and then comes either this line or a transposition:

44 Rxe5 Qxe5
45 Ba2+ Kh8
46 Rd8

which is the game line, and would presumably continue

46 ... Kg7
47 Rxe8 Qxc3
48 bxc3

and again white has a won endgame.

Still I prefer 43 Ba2+ right away.

Looking at the kibitzing I see other people spotted that line.

Feb-11-08
Premium Chessgames Member
  kevin86: chessgames:whatever you do,don't combine Zappa with Crafty!

The result would be "CRAPPY"-lol

Feb-11-08  popski: <kevin86> Hehe, good one! :)
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