< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 3 OF 3 ·
|Dec-21-06|| ||DeepThought: <nimzo knight: Is it really thursday. First time I could see it inside out, mating in three.>|
Please look again. After 21..Bf3, White has about 15(!) better moves than 22.Re3 (-M4):
...to be continued
(Analysis provided by Rybka at 17 plies.)
(Personally, I saw Bf3 and noticed that White had Qf5.) So I looked it up anyway.
|Dec-21-06|| ||trguitar: No one can claim they got this puzzle without dealing with 22. Be6. What does black play after this?|
|Dec-21-06|| ||ganesh957: This one was not so easy, it took me several minutes to solve. The difficult thing is that Bf3 doesn't look so forcing, but with the threat of Qh3 there aren't many possibilities left.|
|Dec-21-06|| ||midknightblue: <greensfield> nice summary. Thx. I missed it, but you captured the essence of seeing this combo perfectly. Has anyone explained what route black should take after Be6. Is simply fxBe6 enough for maintaining an advantage (sorry, dont have access to an engine right now). Thx!|
|Dec-21-06|| ||midknightblue: oops, I see crafty already answered my question|
|Dec-21-06|| ||JNewton: I wouldn't be too sure of Crafty's analysis. It seems that 26. NxN is completely winning for White. Unless I'm missing something, I don't think Crafty was analyzing the correct position|
|Dec-21-06|| ||alphee: Great puzzle, took me some time to abandon the idea of ♘h3+.|
|Dec-21-06|| ||Tomlinsky: The puzzle from the given position is cooked. 22.Re3 is a complete blunder and the game is still very much alive if 22.Be6 is played instead. There is no forced win after 21.Bf3.|
|Dec-21-06|| ||trguitar: <JNewton> If 26. Nxf4, then 26...Rxf4 with the Queen and Rook penetrating white's position. With black up a pawn and control of the d-file, black is winning. But not easily. There's nothing inherently wrong with Crafty's analysis.|
|Dec-21-06|| ||JNewton: Ah ah...I was missing the fact that the pawn is no longer on f7. Thanks|
|Dec-21-06|| ||Sneaky: <Tomlinsky: The puzzle from the given position is cooked> Nonsense! Is there a stronger move than 21...Bf3? No? Then what's the problem?|
|Dec-21-06|| ||Sneaky: Incidentally, even if there was a stronger move than 21...Bf3, it STILL wouldn't be cooked--it would be a super hard spoiler.|
|Dec-21-06|| ||aazqua: Actually, after bf3 22 be6 qb7 (avoids the knight fork on qc6) white has the following nice escape: 25 p*b! q*p 26 b-d5! q*b 27 q-e4 which leads to queen trades with white only a pawn down. Maybe still be a loser but there's a chance to hold on if the pawns can be traded.|
|Dec-21-06|| ||ALEXIN: It seems that the disaster occured because there are misplaced white pieces (Queen, Rook f1 for example).|
|Dec-21-06|| ||Fezzik: 21.Bf3 is clearly a beautiful move. It wins material even against the best defense. Aesthetically and objectively, it's the right move to make. That White blundered so awfully isn't Black's fault.|
|Dec-21-06|| ||GannonKnight: Didn't get it today. Oh well ... Maybe tomorow. I inititally thought it was White to play as well. LOL.|
|Dec-22-06|| ||Tomlinsky: <Sneaky: Nonsense! Is there a stronger move than 21...Bf3?>|
No there isn't BUT the win isn't a given with that move. The point is that the whole premise of the winning 'solution' is based on the outright blunder Re3. Without that move the game is still very much alive.
<Incidentally, even if there was a stronger move than 21...Bf3, it STILL wouldn't be cooked--it would be a super hard spoiler.>
The problem as set is to find the continuation, not a single move. The continuation is erroneous in this case as it can be refuted.
<Then what's the problem?> See above. It isn't nonsense.
|Dec-22-06|| ||acirce: <No there isn't BUT the win isn't a given with that move. The point is that the whole premise of the winning 'solution' is based on the outright blunder Re3.>|
Where did it say "Black to move and win"?
|Dec-22-06|| ||Tomlinsky: <acirce: Where did it say "Black to move and win"?>|
So only the move Bf3 was required to solve the problem? It didn't say "Black to move and white to immediately blunder" either that I can recall.
|Dec-22-06|| ||acirce: <So only the move Bf3 was required to solve the problem?>|
I'd probably say solving the puzzle requires finding 21..Bf3 together with the idea behind it, and a way to deal with 22.Be6 (not that it's hard, but you have to SEE it to begin with).
That it's not necessarily "winning" has nothing to do with it - that is not the idea of these exercises.
|Dec-22-06|| ||Towershield: Because I had seen L Larsson vs C Erlandsson, 1966 I solved it in a few seconds.|
|Dec-23-06|| ||Fisheremon: <crafty: 22. Be6 fxe6 23. gxf3 Qd5 24. Re3 Qxa2 25. Ne2 Rad8>
24...h5 gives Black a clear win.|
|Jan-23-07|| ||midknightblue: hello tomlinsky, acirce, towershiled and fisheremon.|
|Jan-30-07|| ||Tomlinsky: Greetings to you as well <midknightblue>.|
<Fisheremon: <crafty: 22. Be6 fxe6 23. gxf3 Qd5 24. Re3 Qxa2 25. Ne2 Rad8> 24...h5 gives Black a clear win.>
22.Be6 fxe6 23.gxf3 Qd5 24.Re3 h5 and then 25.Kh1 leading to this position...
click for larger view
...isn't an automatic win by any stretch of the imagination. Black has better than 24...h5 but the win still has to be demonstrated and will not be swift.
|Oct-21-08|| ||Xeroxx: hello midknightblue and Tomlinsky|
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