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Sunil Mokal Prathamesh vs Amro El Jawich
13th Dubai Open (2011), Dubai UAE, rd 6, Apr-16
Sicilian Defense: Najdorf. Opocensky Variation Traditional Line (B92)  ·  1-0


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Given 13 times; par: 41 [what's this?]

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Kibitzer's Corner
< Earlier Kibitzing  · PAGE 3 OF 3 ·  Later Kibitzing>
Jun-30-11  LIFE Master AJ: <ounos> I am glad I gave you a laugh! ;)

On a serious side, ALL the engines show 30.Bc3 to be VASTLY superior to the game continuation!!!

I am happy there are engines today. In the old days, (B.C. = "before computers"); we would endlessly argue over the merits of one move over another one. Today - a chess engine is the ultimate arbiter in these type of disputes. (Just a thought.)

I might (respecttfully) suggest that you (try to) learn from the computers, otherwise you will lose your next tournament game to someone who regularly trains with such a device.

As for the flame wars - they are over. Don't bother trying to reignite them, there is no fuel for them to burn. (And this website has greatly lessened in its overall importance to me.) So you are simply wasting your time.

Jun-30-11  LIFE Master AJ: <<Jun-30-11 Terry McCracken: <LIFE Master AJ: I spent about 30 minutes with Fritz and Rybka, (whole game); there is no doubt that 30.Bc3! was much superior to the game line.> Yes I saw that line but it's not objectively best if simplification shows a direct and easy win

It does. For a computer 30. Bc3 is the only move but not for a human. I doubt he missed it.>>

I won't argue with you. Only state the obvious - that Fritz 12 (and several other engines) greatly prefers 30.Bc3! (And that ...Qe6 was actually a minor error in the first place!)

MANY times, (and I have been roundly criticized - on this website - for even saying it); that a human cannot always play like a computer ... and maybe should NOT even try! Whether or not White saw 30.Bc3! is completely irrelevant. He played one move - and it was more than enough to win. (End of story.)

Premium Chessgames Member
  patzer2: Slightly modifying <gofer>'s winning line against <Crafty> is <28 Qxd8 Bxd8 29 Rxd8 h6 30 Bd6 Kh7 31 Bxf8 Qc7
32 Ree8 Qxa5 33 g3 Qa1+ 34 Kg2 Qxb2>

click for larger view

35. Rd7! Qf6 37. Ree7 Kg8

click for larger view

38. Rxf7 Qxf7 39. Rxf7 Kxf7 40. Bxc4 .

Premium Chessgames Member
  DarthStapler: I got the first two moves and the general idea but I didn't see the Qe6 defense
Premium Chessgames Member
  Diademas: Strangely enough it seems like both suggestions are right. 30. Bc3 leaves white with a greater advantage, but the pawn ending is more easily won OTB.

I kind of favour AJ's move since it leads to some material gain, while the moves played actually leaves white worse of than when the puzzle starts.

Jun-30-11  Dr. J: <...wins a pawn for a won King and Pawn endgame, is objectively the strongest finish. This is because it leaves Black with almost zero possibility of a swindle...>

If that's what you believe, then you haven't played enough K+P endings.

Jun-30-11  wals: Rybka 4 x 64


25...Bc7, +2.40. Best, f6, +1.74.

26...Rd8, +4.18. Best, Nf6, +2.35.

29...Qe6, +7.30. Best, h5, +4.77.

Black resigned after 33.Kf1, +8.65.

17.Qe2, =0.00.
17...Rd4, 0.29. Best, Qb5, -=0.10.

18...Nd7, +0.75. Best, Bd8, 0.28.

19...Bxd5, +0.99. Best,Bd8, +0.75.

Black is down a pawn in value and steadily faded.

Jun-30-11  wals: Rybka 4 x 64

d 24 : 18 min :

1. (9.05): 30.Rxf8+ Kxf8 31.Bxg7+[] Ke7 32.Rxe6+[] Kxe6 33.f3[] Kd7 34.Kf2[] Ke6 35.Ke3[] Kf5 36.Bf8 Ke5 37.Bxc5 Ke6 38.Kd4 h5 39.Ke4 h4 40.Bd4 Kd6 41.Kf5[] Kd7 42.Kf6 Ke8 43.Bc5 Kd7 44.Kxf7 Kc6 45.Bb6

2. (5.46): 30.Bc3 Qh6 31.Bd2[] Qg6 32.Ree8 Qb1+[] 33.Be1[] g5 34.Rxf8+ Kg7 35.Rg8+ Kf6 36.Kf1[] Qxb2 37.Rd5[] Qc2 38.Rxc5[] Ke6 39.Rcxg5 Qxc4+ 40.Kg1[] Kd7 41.Re5 Qd4 42.Re3 h5 43.Bc3 Qd1+ 44.Re1[] Qd3 45.Bf6

Jun-30-11  James Bowman: 30. Bc3 looks very strong and better than the continuation chosen, not that it wasn't winning but by a smaller margin and with more room to drop the ball.

I thought that the players probably weren't grandmasters before I checked by certain moves they chose.

I play like a toaster myself very seldom do I get it just right.

Jun-30-11  LIFE Master AJ: BTW, the first player in this game is NOT a GM! (He's an IM.)

Jun-30-11  LIFE Master AJ: So maybe a GM finds 30.Bc3.

And its entirely possible that he saw Bc3, but decided (possibly under pressure of the clock) to go with the simpler move.

<patzer2> Last move in your line should be "Bishop takes on c5," not c4.

Jun-30-11  LIFE Master AJ: BTW, when I played this out with the computer, Black struggled on for a very long time. (The pawn ending.)

The positions after 30.Bc3!! are hugely winning for White, and in about 10 moves, it more than doubles.

30.RxN/f8+! was also a good move, and more than satisfactory enough to get the job done.

Jun-30-11  WhiteRook48: I went for 28 Bxc7 instead, I should've seen the simpler approach.
Jun-30-11  LIFE Master AJ: BTW, I was not the first person to point out 30.Bc3. User <johnlspouge> deserves that honor, not me. (I think his numbering is <somehow> off, but I still got the idea.)

So - you see - its not about "my moves" (as one person said in an e-mail, but THANKS for your thoughts, although your tone was somewhat curt); its about TRUTH on the board!

To me - this is a very important issue, and one of the reasons I come to this site. For the most part, I think that the majority of the users enjoy the "group think" (for the POTD) and I honestly learn something every day. [Sometimes it can be the simplest insight into the game. Its also GREATLY helps me (especially as a chess teacher) to hear what the lowest-rated players have to say. Usually their problems will also be my students problems. So ANY insight into how chess players think are very useful!]

And if you ever get a chance to talk to any of my students, you will see that I spend a great deal of time talking about the PSYCHOLOGY of chess moves.

Jun-30-11  LIFE Master AJ: I will give you just one example. (Of a psychological approach to chess.)

My second round game ("Mobile Classic" vs. a 1700 player, J. Mitchell) began with the following moves:

1.d4 Nf6; 2.Nf3 g6; 3.Nc3 Bg7; 4.e4 d6; 5.h3,


Nice, safe. Just a hunch, he looked like a tactical player, his game in the first round was "messy," so I go with the "positional" option.

Uh-oh. KID / Grunfeld player. (Or maybe Nimzo-Indian.)

He verified my thoughts after the game. [Studied the KID / was not aware (or worried that) we had transposed out of it.]

None of that! (I am also heading for a Catalan, but with my preferred move order. I have been preparing the Catalan for about five years now, played it in hundreds of on-line games, starting to get a 'feeeeeel' for it. IF I don't mess it up, I often get a BIG positional advantage out of the Catalan System in the opening.)

He still wants a possible KID. (When I was a 1700, I studied a lot of main lines, didn't give transpositions or minor sidelines too much thought.)

An attempt to get him out of the main lines of the KID ... (I have carefully prepared a couple of these sidelines. I am not worried if he plays or finds the best move here.)

He hardly even paused before playing this ... I don't think he gave it too much thought.

4.e4, (center!)
I just make the most natural move. (My pawn duo in the center is very nice, and more importantly, I am very comfortable with it.)

Of course, he has to stop/discourage White from playing e4-e5.

This is kind of an "in-between move." (Not great, but not bad.) Its #4 or #5 on the "Power-Book."

However, I have prepared this line deeply, even if my opponent finds/knows the best line past move 15, I am prepared for that.

MORE IMPORTANTLY - you have to ask yourself, "What kind of player plays a KID / Modern?" Answer, usually one that favors tactics over normal/other stuff. h2-h3 is a line designed to suck a lot of the dynamic possibilities out of the position, Black must tread a narrow (and precise) path to equality.

The further course of the game showed that my psychological assessments were very accurate. Black soon showed himself to be uncomfortable (used a great deal of time) and basically played the "standard" KID type moves ... and lost an exchange out of the opening. (White won a nice game.)

The point being is that there is a tremendous amount of psychology behind every move, sometimes you have to consider these as well. All this stuff is useless if you are playing an engine, but valuable against human competition ... ... ...

Jun-30-11  Terry McCracken: <LIFE Master AJ: <<Jun-30-11 Terry McCracken: <LIFE Master AJ: I spent about 30 minutes with Fritz and Rybka, (whole game); there is no doubt that 30.Bc3! was much superior to the game line.> Yes I saw that line but it's not objectively best if simplification shows a direct and easy win It does. For a computer 30. Bc3 is the only move but not for a human. I doubt he missed it.>>

I won't argue with you. Only state the obvious - that Fritz 12 (and several other engines) greatly prefers 30.Bc3! (And that ...Qe6 was actually a minor error in the first place!)

MANY times, (and I have been roundly criticized - on this website - for even saying it); that a human cannot always play like a computer ... and maybe should NOT even try! Whether or not White saw 30.Bc3! is completely irrelevant. He played one move - and it was more than enough to win. (End of story.)>

You are arguing with me. You need to tone it done a bit. You shouldn't try to present yourself as the final authority on every game and position, regardless if you're a Grandmaster or a club player. You're a USCF Master and your contributions are valuable but so are the contributions of many other players here of varying abilities and deserve respect as well. You gave credit to John, albeit he agreed with you, you need to extend that courtesy to those with a different view with what is best or best for them as were human not cold calculating machines free of human weaknesses.

dzechiel sets a great example and his comments are the first I read, you could take a lesson in humilty from him. It would make for a more cordial and interactive environment.

Jun-30-11  BiteByBits: After spending quite some time on the lookout for the conventional mating threat...(either back row or kingside) or win some material with the pinned black rook... one thing i noticed was that white's active rooks and bishop surprisingly cuts off black's queen from any active play...this is a good situation to exchange pieces where you end up with minor pieces vs your opponents queen. 28. Qxd8! Bxd8 (what else? Bxe5 definitely wont work) 29 Rxd8 (threatening Bd6 to win the knight)
29....i spent alot of time looking for a black response and i couldn't stop i choose h6 or Qe6 to pin the white bishop against the rook. A. if 29...h6
30 Bd6 b5 31 Bxf8 Kh7
32 Rd8 Qc7 33 cxb5 axb5 34 a6 Qa5
33 Red1 (i think white can win here)
B. if 29...Qe6,
30 Rxf8+ (set up a discover) Kxf8
31 Bxg7+ Kxg7 32 Rxe6, fxe6
33 f2 (should win the game as white as pawn majority on kingside)
Jun-30-11  ColeTrane: Qe6 is avoidable error
Premium Chessgames Member
  patzer2: <LIFE Master AJ> Thanks for the correction. By the way, when I indicated I thought 30. Rxf8+ was stronger than 30. Bc3, I hadn't seen your post yet. So I wasn't trying to get in on the controversy.

Over the board, I think I might have gone for 30. Bc3 and the win of the piece instead of the pawn up endgame with 30. Rxf8+.

In playing it out against the computer I found the pawn endgame win with 30. Rxf8+ easier than the piece up win with 30. Bc3. However, that may say more about my middle game play being well below master level than it does in suggesting one move is inherently superior to the other.

One thing I think we both can agree on is that playing out the win with both 30. Bc3 and 30. Rxf8+ is instructive and helpful.

Jul-01-11  LIFE Master AJ: PREFACE: This ONLY is applied to me, DON'T take offense at it ... whomever you are!

I cannot play like an engine ... and personally, I don't think I should even try. (Its a waste of time.) AFTER the game is over, I can use my favorite chess program (engine) to find out what mistakes were made and try to learn from them.

***** ***** *****

About 29...Qe6.

First of all, the engines DO label this as an error, and (to a certain extent) I can agree with that. However, that being said, HUMAN chess is about trying to throw problems at your opponent. (Ones that you hope he will not be able to solve, not in the parameters that apply to that particular encounter.)

In the position after 29.Rxd8,

click for larger view

Black does NOT have many options. (I have examined this position in depth, both with the engines and with just my head.)

To sum up, Black has either come up with SOMETHING ... or sit helplessly, and watch White win the pinned Knight on f8. To a certain extent, 29...Qe6; is one of the few moves that fit this bill. (I instinctively avoided putting the BQ on the same file as a WR. Call it training, instincts, paranoia ... whatever you like.)

As <Once> put it, (more or less); one of the weak points of the lady is that she don't fly too well solo ... she works best with other pieces. (Sometimes the lone Queen is a monster ... and sometimes a hapless victim of a gang of thugs ... it all depends on the position.)

Premium Chessgames Member
  Once: Whoa, folks, whoa! We've been doing well up to now. Let's not blow it now, eh?

There is a serious chess point at the heart of this. Here's the position that folks are talking about with white to play:

click for larger view

In the game, white chose to simplify into an easy pawn endgame with 30. Rxf8+ Kxf8 31. Bxg7+ Kxg7 32. Rxe6 fxe6 33. Kf1 leading to here:

click for larger view

White will win although it will take him a few moves to round up the weak black pawns and push his kingside majority.

Rewind to the first diagram. 30. Bc3 is a perfectly valid alternative way to win. Black is not going to be able to protect his Nf8 and will find himself wth Q v B+2R.

It's a matter of personal choice which route you prefer. Do you like endgames? Then exchange off into the king and pawn endgames. Do you like to play with pieces? Then play 30. Bc3 and make black squirm.

On balance, the pawn endgame is probably the safer but slower endgame. But we surely can't criticise anyone for choosing 30. Bc3. It wins handsomely. Nuff said.

Where I struggle is the tone that people are using. There is a genuine chess point in here. 30. Bc3 may be stronger but 30. Rxf8+ is easier to play. As <Diademas> rightly said, this may be an instance where the best move according to a computer is not the most pragmatic move for a human to make.

A serious chess point which deserves to be treated with respect.

But it depends how you say it. <ounos> chose to make it an attack on AJ by LOL "Laughing out loud" at his choice of Bc3 and suggesting that he had misunderstood the value of the pawn ending.

That was unnecessary - shrouding a genuine point in a provocative tone. We are often going to disagree with each other's views and analysis. That's healthy.

But let's do so civilly, hm?

Jul-01-11  bartonlaos: <It was very similar to the time that one user wanted to have the admins here censor me because he did not approve of my politics ... >

Where did I state that I did not approve of your politics? Show me. You can't. This is because I wasn't attacking you or any political point of view. I was just listing the sources of conflict. My solution was simple:

You desire some changes over things that the others write on your games. They desire changes over some things you also write. There's a balance in granting this if the truce is broken, because neither side wants to allow the other side's wishes.

Instead of seeing the solution for what it was, as an effort to make the truce stronger, you pissed and moaned about being persecuted.

Jul-01-11  Terry McCracken: You doubled posted in your forum, that's why you blocked me. Now you can carry your personal attacks against me over there and I can't say anything about it. Crybaby? Wimp? Nimcompoop? What the hell is wrong with you?

You're sick Goldsby.

Jul-04-11  LIFE Master AJ: <<Jun-30-11 NM JRousselle: This is not a good puzzle.

White is up the exchange for which Black has zero compensation. >>

Bottom line - the starting position was already won for White ...

Premium Chessgames Member
  Check It Out: Shredder was very unhappy with 18...Nd7, which allows 19.Nd5, trapping black's rook.

BTW, 34 AJ posts, of which half have nothing to do with the game and are part of a one-sided flame war, is called spamming the board, and violates posting policy #2.

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