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ABC Sevilla/Cordoba:

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>> Click here to see Tabanus's game collections. Full Member
   Current net-worth: 16 chessbucks
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   Tabanus has kibitzed 14638 times to chessgames   [more...]
   Apr-24-14 Biographer Bistro
Tabanus: Hoogovens with s I suppose, but <Stonehenge> would know, he is Dutch. Perhaps CG should create a "RoundDate" tag for all games? I can't imagine how to sort a year by round numbers.
   Apr-24-14 A T Bigelow (replies)
Tabanus: could be him? He lives in Seabreaze, Volusia, Florida in 1920 (as dentist) still together with Edna.
   Apr-23-14 Ufuk Tuncer (replies)
Tabanus: <perfidious> Sorry, but Carlsen lost today.
   Apr-21-14 Smyslov vs Larsen, 1964
Tabanus: Picture:
   Apr-21-14 chessforum (replies)
Tabanus: <cg> One more: If you remove the three playoff games from Amsterdam Interzonal (1964) , I will nominate Game Collection: Amsterdam Interzonal Playoff 1964 .
   Apr-20-14 Portisch vs Huebner, 1980
   Apr-19-14 Tabanus chessforum (replies)
Tabanus: <WCC> Perhaps I'll man up to it one day. I'd like to see CG standardize what we already have in the TI. <its competitors were not the winners of zonal tournaments, but chess players put on the list by votes of specialists> Hmm, I'll skip referring to that. There were ...
   Apr-10-14 H Van Riemsdijk vs Polugaevsky, 1979
Tabanus: Duplicate of H Van Riemsdijk vs Polugaevsky, 1979
   Apr-10-14 Miles vs R Rodriguez, 1979
Tabanus: Duplicate of Miles vs R Rodriguez, 1979
   Apr-10-14 Adorjan vs Polugaevsky, 1979
Tabanus: Correct duplicate: Adorjan vs Polugaevsky, 1979
(replies) indicates a reply to the comment.

Kibitzer's Corner
< Earlier Kibitzing  · PAGE 43 OF 43 ·  Later Kibitzing>
Premium Chessgames Member
  WCC Editing Project: Hello!

I have a question I hope you can answer-

This is one of yours, no?

Saltsj÷baden Interzonal (1948)

Do you know why FIDE qualified <Bronstein> qualified for this tournament? It says FIDE picked the "Russian" players based partly on <Moscow 1947>, which Bronstein didn't play. (I just changed that to "Soviet" players in the intro. Bronstein wasn't Russian.)

Do you have the source that says that Bronstein was not yet a GM at this event, and that says when he did get the title?

I'm assuming he must have been awarded the GM title for winning the interzonal, but I can't be guessing about any of this, since it's for Game Collection: WCC: Botvinnik-Bronstein 1951.

That means I need a full bibliographical reference including page numbers, if you have access to that, and if you have time, inclination, and wherewithal to help us on these two questions.

I'd be very grateful if you could help.


Premium Chessgames Member
  WCC Editing Project: <Tab>

Apologies if you had nothing to do with the <Salts Interzonal> intro, but Wikipedia says

Bronstein "earned his Grandmaster title in 1950, when FIDE, the World Chess Federation, formalized the process."

Wiki doesn't list a source for this though.

That information might be in the 1950 <TFS> that covered the FIDE congress of that year, right?

Premium Chessgames Member
  Tabanus: <WCCEP> Only 3 zonal champions participated because of few zonal tournaments, and FIDE picked no less than 17 GM's for Saltsj÷baden 1948 by a voting within FIDE. p. 159

Then I have that Bronstein was the only Russian in Saltsj÷baden without the "Russian" GM title, but "that the awarding of this came right after this win is obvious" - i. e. he was apparently awarded the Russian GM title in 1948. p. 180

FIDE congress 1950: p. 208: only Sńmisch mentioned as awarded GM title.

FIDE congress July 1949 ( p. 159:

"The international Master titles.

.... following decision: 1) The title of international grandmaster goes to the following players:

a) World champion Botvinnik.

b) Players who are qualified to participate in FIDE's Candidates tournament, for now the 14 who are qualified for Budapest, plus the players who replace these players in the Candidates tournament and achieve at least 50%.

c) Other masters, who by age are acknowledged as international grandmasters. The qualification committee will make a list of these players for the congress in 1950. However it was explained that the following are already entitled: Bernstein, Duras, GrŘnfeld, L÷wenfisch, Mieses, Ragosin, Rubinstein, Tartakower and Vidmar."

From this I conclude that Bronstein became a GM in 1949!

Premium Chessgames Member
  WCC Editing Project: <Tab>!

You have again come through with treasure. Thank you so much. These will be good facts to put in the WCC draft. Thanks for searching, translating and documenting them.

I was also looking, but I got distracted by this event- Moscow (1947).

I was happy to find it, because I can add another "blue game link" to the Game Collection: Smyslov's Tournaments and Matches 1935-1979 elephant.

Hmm "2d Chigorin International tournament 1947" would be a much better title for this event, no? Or maybe just "Chigorin Memorial 1947" would be best.

Can we change the title? Should I try?

"Moscow Tournament" isn't nearly good enough for this event title. There were several tournaments in Moscow 1947, but none so rich as this one, with such an historic title either.

Chigorin might have rolled over in his grave when he read our title of his second memorial.

At any rate, I added the start-finish dates to Moscow (1947), "Tabanus style."

I briefly considered adding them "Cajun Style" or even "Gangnam Style," but thought better of it.

I also added this passage at the end:

<He was joined by six fellow soviets at the top of the table. Of the foreign masters, only Pachman (Czechoslovakia) and Trifunovic (Yugoslavia) managed to score more than 50%, finishing in the middle of the pack. Gligoric (Yugoslavia) finished 10th; Kottnauer (Czechoslovakia) 13th, Plater (Poland) shared 14th; and Tsvetkov (Bulgaria) 16th and last.

This event was also notable in that it revived a series that had languished for almost half a century. The first Chigorin Memorial international tournament had been held in St Petersburg (1909), a year after Chigorin's death. >

I noticed that St Petersburg (1909) doesn't have a crosstable.

Is it impossible to make one because of <Nenarokov's> early departure?

I think there must be a crosstable of this event somewhere?

Speaking of crosstables, we did note your kibbutz on the FIDE World Championship Tournament (1948) page, which has now been replaced by our draft. I can tell you that Daniel did indeed spend several days trying to put a crosstable in, but this task proved too formidable due to the WCC pages being "special html top secret code" pages. As I gather, anyways.

He has started fixing the errata on the transcription of our draft, but not finished, so maybe he will still find a way to add a text crosstable under the article and above the notes?

Who knows.

Premium Chessgames Member
  WCC Editing Project: <Tab>

I put this in small type at the very bottom of Saltsj÷baden Interzonal (1948):

"Only 3 zonal champions participated, and FIDE picked no less than 17 GM's for Saltsj÷baden 1948 by a voting within FIDE." p. 159

But there seems to be a discrepancy. According to the intro, there were five zonals from which players actually came. Is that a "small number" of zonals, generally speaking?

According to the intro, nine players came from these five zonals.

That leaves seven players that were picked by FIDE.

The <Tfs> must say "7" and not "17," right?

There were only 16 in the event.

I assume <Tfs> says "7" were picked by FIDE, but I thought I'd confirm with you before entering this information anywhere.

Premium Chessgames Member
  WCC Editing Project: <Tab>

Again, sorry to spam, but once I start looking at these intros I notice things.

This passage here has an "asterisk" note, but there is no actual corresponding footnote with information?

"...the players went to luxurious Grand H˘tel* in Saltsj÷baden..."

Was it originally intended to post a photo of the hotel? That would be a good idea.

I can see by your source list that you did a tremendous amount of work researching and writing this intro. Outstanding work.

Now that I'm sure it was you who wrote this, I just took out the extra info I had added in small text at the bottom.

The only changes I made was to change "Russian" to "Soviet" twice.

Premium Chessgames Member
  TheFocus: <WCC> (St. Petersburg 1909) does have a cross table. It is at the bottom of the intro. It should be moved towards the top.
Premium Chessgames Member
  WCC Editing Project: <TheFocus>

Good heavens... I really failed to "get to the bottom" of this mystery.

Thank you.

I moved up the crosstable and put the venue and start finish dates on top of it "TabStyle."

Premium Chessgames Member
  Tabanus: <WCC Editing Project: <Tab> I put this in small type at the very bottom of Saltsj÷baden Interzonal (1948) ..>

Did you remove it again? The TfS passage is on page 139, not 159 as I wrote. It says 3 from zonals and "sjutton" (= 17) picked by FIDE. There were 20 players not 16. The 5 "zonal" tournaments listed were not exactly zonals, or this was a matter of debate. Which is why I wrote "zonal" with ". Hmm.

The photo the hotel link is still there, in small text.

Premium Chessgames Member
  WCC Editing Project: Cripes I can't even count.

Not a good sign for the website...
Thanks for the updated page number correction- that's very valuable.

Ok I understand now- <Tfs> didn't count all the "zonals"- only 3 winners from 3 "zonals" right?

How confusing eh?

At any rate, thanks to you I have all of the hard information I need for Game Collection: WCC: Botvinnik-Bronstein 1951, with good sources.

Thanks man!

Premium Chessgames Member
  WCC Editing Project: Aha yes I did remove it.

Once I was certain you had researched and written the intro, I took it out because it would have been insane to leave it in.

<Tab> researches and writes the intro... <Tab> researches similar information relating to the event and passes it to <Jess>... <Jess> sticks that information at the bottom of <Tab's> intro in very small type for no apparent reason....


Premium Chessgames Member
  Tabanus: <Aha- in fact your introduction says (kind of) that all 20 players were chosen by FIDE, right?>

Yes, they practically were. I don't know how else to write this. If FIDE had its definitions, nobody knew what these consisted of, neither the country federations nor the players. And I suspect not the author in TfS either. One zonal I read about was announced as such the day before it began! (I don't remember which one.) If you are confused, then I've got the message through :)

Premium Chessgames Member
  WCC Editing Project: <Doctor Tab> I agree with your diagnosis.

I think that you have stated the facts as clearly as they can be stated in your fine intro.

If chess history weren't so puzzling, it wouldn't be so fun.

It would help though, if the <> biographers were able to scroll down to the bottom of pages, count, and actually see.

Strike 3 for me this go-round.

It's a good thing for me our webmaster probably doesn't read our fora... Imagine getting fired from an unpaid job?

That wouldn't be good for my "resume."

Premium Chessgames Member
  Tabanus: <WCC> I guess FIDE picked players in co-operation with the national federations, with a lot of quarreling and fuzz, incl. also boycott by some federations. But to research all this in detail would take years.

If Moscow 1947 was <the> Chigorin Memorial, it should probably be called just that: Chigorin Memorial (1947).

Premium Chessgames Member
  WCC Editing Project: <Chigorin Memorial (1947)> works for me.

Should I submit a correction slip?

Anything is better than the current title.

Premium Chessgames Member
  Tabanus: <WCC> Yes by all means!

If it's really possible to change event titles via correction slips, probably we need a plan.

Premium Chessgames Member
  WCC Editing Project: <A plan>

That sounds suitably sinister.

I vote you to be the leader, or the "man behind the curtain," if you prefer.

Know one thing: If you come up with a cunning plan, I will obey any order, no matter how ridiculous.

I want that title changed.

Premium Chessgames Member
  WCC Editing Project: <Tab>

Here is a precedent we can use in our legal case:

Alekhine Memorial (1956).

Note how this is not called <Moscow 1956>.

Premium Chessgames Member
  Tabanus: <WCC> I'll think about it. Sounds like lots of work, partly because of the many memorials we have to pick only one Alekhine Mem., one Capa mem., one this and one that Mem.
Premium Chessgames Member
  WCC Editing Project: <Tab> Agree it sounds like a lot of work, but it may be less than we think.

Almost none of the <Chigorin, Capablanca, Alekhine> memorials have even been made into games collections, let alone promoted to official pages.

So maybe it wouldn't be too difficult to establish a naming convention when there's almost nothing to name yet. Might make it easier, not harder, to change the names of the memorials that are in games collections and promoted pages, since there almost aren't any.

Premium Chessgames Member
  WCC Editing Project: <Tab>

With respect to our earlier topic, here is some sourced (and page numbered!) information courtesy of <Chessical> that I just found.

On Game Collection: Bronstein at the Saltsj÷baden Interzonal (1948):



<From the "Soviet Chess School" by Kotov and Yudovich; "(The interzonal) was distinguished from all the rest because its competitors were not the winners of zonal tournaments, but chess players put on the list by votes of specialists. Seven Soviet chess players were among those invited..." (p77-78, Raduga Publishers (1982).>

Premium Chessgames Member
  Tabanus: <WCC> Perhaps I'll man up to it one day. I'd like to see CG standardize what we already have in the TI.

<its competitors were not the winners of zonal tournaments, but chess players put on the list by votes of specialists>

Hmm, I'll skip referring to that. There were three zonals I believe, although they were not firmly established.

Premium Chessgames Member
  WCC Editing Project: <Tab> Ok then. Be sure to give me a shout when you man up on this project, so I can woman up and follow your directions.

heh... before <> can standardize all of the existing titles, there'll have to be a giant honking discussion in the <Bistro>, eh?

Premium Chessgames Member
  WCC Editing Project: Hey oop here's another one-

<Maroczy Memorial 1952> Game Collection: Budapest 1952

Premium Chessgames Member
  WCC Editing Project: I will do <Moldavia>.

I didn't know it existed until I saw it finishing last in a <USSR Team Championships> crosstable.

Just to let you know I am currently checking my new <Di Felice> book and putting in a few missing dates here and there.

I put the start-finish dates in for Geller-Smyslov Candidates Quarterfinal Match (1965), sourced them, and <Tabanized> the format with the site and date right on top of the crosstable.

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