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| Aug-13-05 | | ughaibu: "It would take a Fischerandom player to start complaining about the lights in the first place..." great stuff, just what I needed, thanks. |
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Aug-13-05
 | | Gypsy: <ughaibu: ... great stuff, just what I needed, thanks.> Good to see you in a amicable disposition <ugi>. But I'v got a serious question for you: Around here, you seem to be the person who tried various chess variants the most. ... Well, you certainly are my go-to expert for a piece feedback wisdom about the most peculiar ideas. What irks you about the FRC then? (Besides Fischer's name being associated with it, I mean.) |
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Aug-13-05
| | Gypsy: <ughaibu: ... great stuff, just what I needed, thanks.> Good to see you in an amicable disposition <ugi>. But I'v got a serious question for you: Around here, you seem to be the person who tried various chess variants the most. ... Well, you certainly are my go-to expert for a piece feedback wisdom about the most peculiar ideas. ... What irks you about the FRC then? (Besides Fischer's name being associated with it, I mean.) |
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| Aug-13-05 | | ughaibu: Gypsy: it has nothing attractive for me, it seems just like normal chess rendered a bit more tiresome. In fact I dont like most chess variants. It's really a matter of taste, for example atomic chess I find a horrible game, when playing the thinking feels like stinging nettles being dragged through my brain or extinction chess in which one doesn't have to worry just about the king but about the extinction of any piece species, it feels like mental constipation, but of course there are plenty of people who have these as their favourite games and why not. |
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Aug-13-05
| | Gypsy: Thx <ugi>. |
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| Aug-14-05 | | martis27: Chessgames.com: one of the rules for Fischerandom Chess written here is incorrect: III c rule: All squares between the King and Rook must be empty, and the final square of the Rook must be clear. It should be: All the squares between the king's initial and final squares (including the final square), and all of the squares between the rook's initial and final squares (including the final square), must be vacant except for the king and castling rook. |
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Aug-14-05
 | | chessgames.com: martis, I think you are correct. We will review this issue soon and make any necessary corrections. |
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| Aug-14-05 | | martis27: Example where III c rule is incorrect: initial position: a1-rook, b1-king, c1-rook. In order h-side castle to be possible, squares d1, e1 (and f1 , g1 of course) also must be empty, but rule III c does not require it. |
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Aug-14-05
| | chessgames.com: We agree with your reasoning, we're just reviewing your rewritten rule to see if there are possible improvements on the wording. It looks very good; we might use it verbatim. Did you write that, or is it copied from another source? In any case, thank you for your help. |
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| Aug-14-05 | | martis27: I copied it from this source: http://www.dwheeler.com/essays/Fisc... |
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| Aug-14-05 | | azaris: I still don't get what the attraction is. During the Mainz 960 games, we got some interesting games and a bunch of positive comments from IMs who appeared to be astounded because "the pieces move funny when you castle". But I think the games being interesting had more to do with the rapid time controls than Chess960. In fact, I thought most of the classical rapid games between Anand and Grischuk were more interesting as well as sharper than Almasi and Svidler fumbling in the dark over and over again. |
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| Aug-14-05 | | TruthHurts: That is the elo ranking list in rapid fisher random chess time control: Ranking Player IPS-INDEX
1 Aronian,Levon 2752
2 Svidler,Peter 2750
3 Bacrot,Etienne 2746
4 Leko,Peter 2735
5 Adams,Michael 2735
6 Shirov,Alexey 2723
7 Morozevich,Alexander 2719
8 Ponomariov,Ruslan 2716
9 Dreev,Alexey 2711
10 Sokolov,Ivan 2687
11 Grischuk,Alexander 2682
12 Almasi,Zoltan 2681
13 Kobalija,Mihail 2679
14 Jussupow,Artur 2670
15 Zvjaginsev,Vadim 2670
16 Rublevsky,Sergei 2667
17 Landa,Konstantin 2660
18 Motylev,Alexander 2657
19 Sasikiran,Krishnan 2656
20 Nielsen,Peter-Heine 2652
21 Bologan,Victor 2650
22 McShane,Luke-James 2645
23 Gurevich,Mikhail 2643
24 Sargissian,Gabriel 2635
25 Milov,Vadim 2632
26 Harikrishna,Pentela 2628
27 Nisipeanu,Liviu-Dieter 2626
28 Gyimesi,Zoltan 2625
29 Vallejo Pons,Francisco 2624
30 Sutovsky,Emil 2622
31 Dautov,Rustem 2621
32 Krasenkov,Michal 2620
33 Naiditsch,Arkadij 2620
34 Kasimdzhanov,Rustam 2618
35 Ehlvest,Jaan 2616
36 Georgiev,Kiril Dimitrov 2614
37 Seirawan,Yasser 2614
38 Sadvakasov,Darmen 2612
39 Epishin,Vladimir 2611
40 Tregubov,Pavel 2610
41 Karjakin,Sergey 2610
42 Kazhgaleyev,Murtas 2609
43 Van den Doel,Erik 2609
44 Volokitin,Andrej 2607
45 Bischoff,Klaus 2605
46 Kharlov,Andrei 2603
47 Pigusov,Evgeny 2603
48 Lalic,Bogdan 2602
49 Baklan,Vladimir 2601
50 Fridman,Daniel 2596
51 Graf,Alexander 2594
52 Iordachescu,Viorel 2594
53 Tkachiev,Vladislav 2593
54 Ruck,Robert 2591
55 Huzman,Alexander 2589
56 Vaganjan,Rafael Agred 2588
57 Lanka,Zigurds 2587
58 Pinter,Jozsef 2585
59 Greenfeld,Alon 2580
60 Aleksandrov,Alexcey 2576
61 Shchekachev,Andrei 2574
62 Bauer,Christian 2572
63 Gustafsson,Jan 2569
64 Komarov,Dimitri 2568
65 Hort,Vlastimil 2567
66 Agrest,Evgenij 2564
67 Buhmann,Rainer 2562
68 Schmaltz,Roland 2561
69 Brodsky,Michail 2560
70 Mchedlishvili,Mikhail 2558
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| Aug-14-05 | | Pawsome: I'm all for calling this variant of the game "chess 960 and dropping the appellation "FisherRandom"." Given that his ego is the size of an ocena liner, it's not surprising that Fischer should claim the game as his own, but the idea was proposed by David Bronstein when RJF was in short pants, and I wouldn't be at all surprised if someone had conceived the conncept before Bronstein. That said, I think the Chess 960 is a wonderful development. Since the grid is identical to conventional chess the fundamental principles of chess – central control, dark and light square weaknesses, development and so on, remain the same, but the pathways to achieving them are altered with the result that there is more emphasis is on originality and less on homework. Since all chess players appraise positions (and skillful play) in reference to standard structures. it takes a while appreciate the chess 960. We will, eventually, and Chess 960 will become the game of the future. |
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| Aug-14-05 | | Kelvieto: <TruthHurts> Any guesses on where Bobby stands? |
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Aug-14-05
 | | Eggman: One minor point: if in Fischerandom Chess one wanted to avoid the traditional initial position (#54), then surely one would also want to avoid #48, leaving 958 possible initial positions, instead of the 959 several posters have eluded to. |
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| Aug-14-05 | | micartouse: <Eggman> If the rules are truly as they are written above, then there is a nuance that distinguishes them: castling queenside in #48 would not be a mirror image of castling kingside in #54 and vice versa. But it would be similar anyway. |
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| Aug-14-05 | | Bent Bexley: I am completely with azaris. I don't see the attraction at all. The vast majority of people who play chess don't have the problems in their games that FRC advocates claim plague super-gm chess (and that is still a matter for debate). Pawsome's post reminds me of the famous quote of Lincoln Steffens on Communism/Soviet Union: "I have seen the future, and it works." Not quite.
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Aug-15-05
 | | tamar: There are certain practical drawbacks to FischerRandom that will inhibit its popularity. With regular chess, if I make a mistake, I can find some place in chess literature where Philidor, LaBourdonnais, Staunton, Morphy, Steinitz, Lasker, Capablanca etc would show me what is the correct method, but in a FischerRandom position I am essentially in the same fix before recorded games let players steal others' ideas. |
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Aug-15-05
| | Gypsy: <...I am essentially in the same fix before recorded games let players steal others' ideas.> Except, of course, that there is the ever stronger oracle of Fritz and his mery gang of huligans which chessplayers will lean upon for wisdom and variations. Also, most of the the middle-game and end-game concepts transfer quite dirrectly, only few need to be tweeked or generalized... in fact, most opening principles also transfer just fine, one just has to be able to translate them into moves. |
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| Aug-15-05 | | TruthHurts: <Kelvieto> I guess he stands in Island ;) (actually he didn't play any rated chess 960 game so we don't know)... |
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Aug-15-05
| | tamar: <Except, of course, that there is the ever stronger oracle of Fritz and his mery gang of huligans which chessplayers will lean upon for wisdom and variations.> I can envisage players cheating with Fritz at FischeRandom much more easily than learning from Fritz. It would take a SuperBotvinnik to go through 900+ opening positions and plan an opening repertoire in each! BTW <Gypsy> the next version of Fritz will incorporate FRC castling in all the positions so it will be possible to follow the games easier. |
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| Aug-15-05 | | acirce: I tried to watch some of the Mainz Chess960 games live on ICC but the opening phase made me physically sick. I literally couldn't stand it. It was okay when they started to reach normal positions after 15 moves or so. |
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| Aug-15-05 | | azaris: Like has been said before, there's nothing wrong with Chess960 except the starting position. |
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Aug-15-05
| | Gypsy: <acirce> I belive you are telling it as it is (perhaps with just a littlebit of dramatic license). This probably has to do something with the way we have trained our neural synapses. A long years back a classmate of mine was a budding hammer thrower. I still remember how he explained to me that he could not watch a hammerthrower that spinned clockwise: It just made my friend woozy, he explaiened -- all reasonable track and field guys (all reasonable people, for that matter) knew that the natural way to spin with a hammer was counter-clockwise! < tamar: ... I can envisage players cheating with Fritz at FischeRandom much more easily than learning from Fritz. > Of course, as soon as computers can play one position well, they can play well the 1000 -- OK, almost as soon. Several types of learning are possible from an oracle, be it a computer or a collection of GM games: they range from (i) rote memorization, via (ii) pattern recognition, to (iii) intellectual synthesis. It is the former (i) that clearly will be affected most by the sheer increase in numbers. The synthesis (Aha!) process (iii) is hard, slow, and kind of random anyway. So the question is how well will the pattern recognition learning go. <It would take a SuperBotvinnik to go through 900+ opening positions and plan an opening repertoire in each!> I think that is the point. Btw, SuperBotvinnik is a great label! |
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| Aug-15-05 | | jcmoral: What superpowers, exactly, would SuperBotvinnik have? |
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