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Apr-10-20
 | | jnpope: <<jnpope> Magyar is easy> Just as easy as Finnish!
<I can help, if you really need a native speaker. ;)> https://adtplus.arcanum.hu/en/view/... Could this be the Strauss I'm seeking? |
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Apr-10-20
| | jnpope: Or better still:
<(A pesti sakk-kör) jan. 12-én tartott tisztújító közgyűlésén a titkár mult évről szóló jelentését felolvasván megvizsgálták a pénztárt s ugy találták, hogy ez évben a tőke 92 ft. o. é. és 93 kr. szaporodott. A körnek van jelenleg 53 rendes és 7 rendkívüli tagja. Elnökké Erkel Ferencz, alelnökké Brode Lipót, titkárrá Kubinyi Béla, pénztárnokká Ginter Károly választattak általános szavazattöbbséggel. Választmányi tagokká: Erkel Elek, dr. Spitzer Lipót, Strauss Henrik, Terny ei Ferencz, Zaary Zsigmond, dr.Vidor Zsigmond; végre tiszteletbeli tagokká b. Messena István és gr. Pongrácz Arnold urakat választotta a közgyűlés.>
Vasárnapi Ujság, 1868.01.05, p33
What are the odds that there was a Heinrich in Vienna and a Henrik in Pesth? I'm back to thinking that it's the same person. |
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Apr-10-20
| | jnpope: I've got a feeling that Heinrich moved to Pesth sometime in the 1850s and was there until about 1868 and returned to Vienna (perhaps to go into business with his older brother) where he starts showing up in the German and Austrian chess magazines from 1868 through the 1880s. I am now 95% convinced that Steinitz played Heinrich Strauss (aka Henrik Strauss), during Heinrich's visits back to Vienna, in 1860. Budapest and Vienna are roughly four hours apart by train in 1860. It probably wasn't to difficult for Heinrich to occasionally return to Vienna. |
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Apr-10-20
| | jnpope: And it looks like that citation should be <Vasárnapi Ujság, 1868.01.19, p33>
I stupidly jumped to page one thinking it was a newspaper that started on page one... back-tracking slowly (which one should always do), I see that the numbering for 1868.01.19 starts on page 25. |
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Apr-10-20
 | | Pawn and Two: I have completed two additional game collections for your review and possible inclusion into our chessgames.com tournament index schedules. These two collections are: the 5th German Championship - Bad Oeynhausen 1938 - Game Collection: 5th German Championship - Bad Oeynhausen 1938 & the 6th German Championship - Bad Oeynhausen 1939 - Game Collection: 6th German Championship - Bad Oeynhausen 1939 Many games were missing from our chessgames.com database for both of these tournaments. To supply this missing data, I mainly used as my guide the Lachaga (1972) tournament books. In the 1938 5th German Championship, 13th round game, Kranki vs Reinhardt, the result is provided in the tournament book, a win for Reinhardt, but the tournament book explains that the game score is missing. |
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Apr-11-20
 | | Telemus: I would like to submit the 14 known games of the Master tournament of the Vienna Chess Society 1895. Do I really have to submit them game by game as the introduction of the PGN Upload Utility says? |
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| Apr-11-20 | | TheFocus: <Telemus: I would like to submit the 14 known games of the Mster tournament of the Vienna Chess Society 1895. Do I really have to submit them game by game as the introduction of the PGN Upload Utility says?> If need be, do so.
It will take you what? Half an hour; a full hour? You could already have it done if you only have to do it game by game. Yet you spent this time asking something that you yourself could have solved in an hour's time. SMH. |
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Apr-11-20
 | | Annie K.: <Telemus> Please submit at least the first 3-4 games separately. If they go through without any error notices, you can submit the rest as a batch. :) <jnpope> that paragraph is the details of the Pest Chess Club's meeting to reelect its officers. Heinrich Strauss is a member of the board. BTW, if you must put an "h" in Pest, please put it after the 's' (Pesht), not after the 't'; the first is at least a correct English transliteration, the second is just wrong. Pest is, of course, half of the composite city Budapest, and nobody spells *that* with an 'h'. ;) Hmm, given that this was the time of the Austro-Hungarian Empire, traveling between Vienna and Pest was probably not a big deal. And then there is the point that Heinrich is not a native Hungarian name, not even the Hungaricized Henrik version... but a chess club probably wouldn't appoint a board member who wasn't a local. I'd say Heinrich was probably a Viennese native, who settled in Pest. |
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Apr-11-20
| | jnpope: <BTW, if you must put an "h" in Pest, please put it after the 's' (Pesht), not after the 't'; the first is at least a correct English transliteration, the second is just wrong. Pest is, of course, half of the composite city Budapest, and nobody spells *that* with an 'h'. ;) > Ok, good tip, but I'm just following Bachmann who gives "Pesth" (I guess the Germans spell it that way? https://books.google.com/books?id=v... https://books.google.com/books?id=h... |
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| Apr-11-20 | | chesshistoryinterest: Actually, it did not become the Austro-Hungarian Empire until 1867 - before then, it was just the Austrian Empire. So travel between Vienna and Pest may have been even easier in 1860:) Perhaps possibly the 1868 date mentioned above could connect with this change in status of the Hungarian half of the Empire. Not saying this is likely, but maybe just a thought. |
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Apr-11-20
 | | Tabanus: <Pawn and Two> Looks good, but a few things: 1) both need a crosstable
2) 1938: no play on Sunday 31 July, double round on Monday 1 September, play on Sunday August 7. It looks a little strange, can this be sourced?
3) short intro with min. time and place
4) ref. in intro to source(s), min. Lachaga
5) Site: the games have both "Bad Oeynhausen" and "Bad Oeynhausen GER"
6) TI title: I suggest just "German Championship" (+ year), with a note in the intro that it was the 5th/6th in Nazi Germany. |
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| Apr-11-20 | | TheFocus: <Telemus> I apologize if my last post sounds offensive. That was not my intent. |
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Apr-11-20
| | jnpope: Ok, I plan on submitting some games played in Vienna and Pest in the 1860s. Before 30 March 1867, those locations should be: Vienna AUT
Pest HUN
After 30 March 1867, those locations become:
Vienna AUH
Pest AUH
And as these games are played before 1873 it would be Pest and not Budapest, right?? |
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Apr-11-20
| | Pawn and Two: <Tabanus> Thank you for reviewing my tournament collections for the 1938 & 1939 German championships. I am not chessgames editor, so any help with these submissions is appreciated. Many of the games for these tournaments were missing from our chessgames.com database. My primary source for the game scores and other information was from the two Bad Oeynhausen tournament books (1938 & 1939), by M.A. Lachaga (1972). When I submitted the missing games, I used the dates for each round as given in the tournament book. In the headings for each round, the tournament book provided the round and the date. For instance, in round one of the 1938 tournament book, it shows: <Erste Runde 24 - 7 - 1938>. Both round eight & nine of the 1938 tournament book clearly show the date as: 1 - 8 - 1938. Of course, this could be an error, as the 1939 tournament book, also with 16 competitors, does not have an open date. Round one of the 1939 tournament started on July 9th, and the final and 15th round was played on July 23rd, following a schedule of one game per day. When submitting the missing games, I also submitted dates for the games already in our database. I think all of the games are showing the dates as given in the tournament books. You are correct about the site and title descriptions needing some revisions. Also, regarding the date for the double round in the 1938 tournament, your comment states, Monday 1 September. Please check on this, I think you must have meant, Monday 1 August. One other important item from these Bad Oeynhausen tournament books, the time control for both tournaments was 36 moves in 2 hours, and then 18 moves per hour thereafter. |
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Apr-12-20
| | Tabanus: <jnpope> See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Austr..., I think it would be more correct with (a code for) "Austrian Empire" before 1867. What about AUE :) But I think you can do what you like, and it can be edited later if necessary. <Pawn and Two> Yes I meant 1 August. I can clone your two collections if you like, make crosstables and put them up for game collection voting. With no guarantee about the voting result. |
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Apr-12-20
| | jnpope: <Tabanus> We need a code for the German Empire too (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germa...) for games played in various cities between 1871 and 1918 (unless I use the ACTUAL country code?). And Neustadt HUN (northeast of Vienna) vs Neustadt AUT (south of Vienna) is suddenly a problem (both still existed post-1867 as Neustadt) and if I convert them both to Neustadt AUH it becomes unclear which city the game took place in... boy, these "Empire" country codes are real tricky to use. I think you are right... I'm going with what actually works and I'll let you guys sort out your country code vs empire code nonsense. :-P |
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Apr-12-20
| | Pawn and Two: <Tabanus> Yes, please proceed with the Bad Oeynhausen tournament collections as you have suggested. Thank you very much for your help. |
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Apr-12-20
| | jnpope: Ok, I submitted 10 additional Heinrich Strauss games and I didn't use AUH after 1867; I continued to use HUN and AUT where appropriate (although I did use Pest instead of Budapest). If CG wants to use political associations instead of geographical/cultural boundaries I really cannot prevent that, but to use Russian Empire and Austro-Hungarian Empire but not use German Empire and British Empire seems rather silly to me on a consistency basis. And, again, using a less specific identifier over a more specific identifier is a gut-punch to my classification/organizational sensibilities. |
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Apr-12-20
| | Tabanus: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neust... should solve the Neustadt problem, for example Wiener Neustadt. And aren't the country boundaries today "political" too. <Pawn and Two> I'll try then. I should need the final standings in the tournament books. And then see if it fits with the CG game results. I'll try to find some online sources, but fear that will be difficult. Give me some days or weeks. |
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Apr-12-20
| | jnpope: So your solution is to use a name that didn't exist at the time... more and more down the rabbit hole... |
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Apr-12-20
| | Tabanus: Well use Neustadt AUH then, and explain in the intro which Neustadt it was? The simple point was to use the country at the time the game was played. <Pawn and Two> https://web.archive.org/web/2014071... has the crosstables, it may be easier for you to compare them with the tournament books - are they the same? And I who thought Roger Paige's tables were lost. |
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Apr-12-20
| | jnpope: <The simple point was to use the country at the time the game was played.> My POINT exactly.
Hungary and Austria were still separate countries/kingdoms within the "Empire". It doesn't take much effort to look at an atlas from 1869 to see Hungary was still outlined and listed separate from Austria even though both were part of the Austro-Hungarian Empire. <The simple point was to use the country at the time the game was played.> Repeated because I very much agree with that statement. An Empire is NOT a country.
I guess the solution would be to go:
City, Kingdom/Country, Empire?
So you would have:
Budapest HUN or Budapest HUN AUH
Neustadt HUN or Neustadt HUN AUH
Neustadt AUT or Neustadt AUT AUH
Vienna AUT or Vienna AUT AUH
Lodz POL or Lodz POL RUE
But to drop the Kingdom/Country identifier in favor of an Empire identifier just strikes me as... well, silly and wrong. |
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Apr-12-20
| | Tabanus: <jnpope> I leave it to <Annie>, since your Hungary after 1867 also included Transleithania :) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lands... |
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Apr-12-20
| | jnpope: A slightly different question, but still along the lines of site country codes... where do we place the city of Breslau prior to 1871? For games played between 1701 and 1871 it was a city in the Kingdom of Prussia, but Prussia doesn't have a 3-letter code (historic or otherwise) unlike the Kingdom of Bohemia, which surprisingly has a code, BOH (so now I know how to deal with Prague). Do we just make something up? KOP? PRU? Or just go with "Breslau, Prussia" in the site tag? |
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Apr-12-20
| | Pawn and Two: <Tabanus> The Bad Oeynhausen tournament books by Lachaga do not contain a crosstable, but instead they use a round by round tournament standings page (Fortschrittstabelle). I checked each player's final point score in both tournament books, and these scores matched the scores in the crosstables provided by Roger Paige. I also verified that each player's win, loss and draw totals were the same from both sources. I did not recreate a crosstable to review each game individually. |
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