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Apr-13-20
Premium Chessgames Member
  jnpope: I am still fascinated with the birthplace of Zukertort, Johannes Zukertort

I can feel for poor Zukertort who claimed Riga as his city of birth, but the only records discovered to date indicate he was born in Lublin.

This is probably due to my own birth... I was physically born in a hospital in one city, but my family residence at the time of my birth was in another city; as near as I can figure the other city's hospital was closer when my mother went into labor. So I have two birth certificates: one from the first city that states I was born there AND I have a birth certificate from my state government which gives my place of birth as the second city. And if you ask my younger sisters where I was born you will get a third city as the answer, probably because all of them were born in that city and I was also baptized in that third city.

This is why I'm willing to cut Zukertort some slack on stating that Riga was his place of birth. He may very well have been born in Riga, but his family residence at the time of his birth was probably in Lublin. I wonder if there is any family connection (maternal or paternal) to Riga?

Or perhaps Zukertort wanted to be known as Prussian and not Russian, as some have speculated, and lied about his place of birth...

Apr-13-20
Premium Chessgames Member
  Tabanus: <An Empire is NOT a country.> Tell that to the Emperor.

<Do we just make something up? KOP? PRU?> That would be a next step, if you want a fool-proof system. ;)

Apr-13-20  Paint My Dragon: <jnpope: the birthplace of Zukertort>

Yes, very unclear still. The switch from Riga to Lublin seems to have been based on a statement of Emil Schallopp, who in turn got his information from Herr Adolf Zukertort, JH Zukertort's younger brother. All of this being reported by James G Cunningham, a noted chess writer/historian.

But who is to say whether his brother had been properly informed, or just preferred Johannes' memory to be disassociated from Russia. His father we know travelled about a lot with his work, so if there was ever a time that his wife accompanied him, then that might account for a Riga birth, without there being any known family connection to that city.

Interesting to note your own circumstances too, which show that quirks and vagaries of the system can also play a part in the confusion.

Apr-13-20
Premium Chessgames Member
  MissScarlett: I heard he was born in Kenya.
Apr-13-20
Premium Chessgames Member
  Tabanus: <Pawn and Two> Which do you prefer (for 1938), Paige's table or the one in McGowan's Richter book, https://books.google.no/books?id=cu..., with a different order of those with same number of points.

There was also a tournament book by Alfred Brinckmann 1938, 80 pages.

Apr-13-20
Premium Chessgames Member
  Tabanus: <Pawn and Two> Never mind. I found a newspaper supporting McGowan's table. And also evidence that round 8 was played on July 31.
Apr-13-20
Premium Chessgames Member
  Pawn and Two: <Tabanus> McGowan's table matches the listing of players as in the round by round standings page in Lachaga's tournament book, so I would prefer McGowan's table.
Apr-13-20  Jean Defuse: ...

Jean Defuse: Why presented chessgames.com not Zukertort's full name?

Telemus: <This was bungled by Adams.>

Can someone explain that to me in more detail?

see: Johannes Zukertort

...

Apr-13-20  chesshistoryinterest: I checked the Paige tables against the McGowan tables, and also against those in Di Felice "Chess Results 1936-1940". All match each other.

I also checked the results of each individual game against the crosstables. All look correct.

Regarding the order of names in the tables: Both Paige tables are in Sonneborn-Berger order. Neither of the McGowan ones are. Di Felice's 1938 table is in the same order as McGowan's; whereas his 1939 table is in the same order as Paige's. My preference is for tables to be in Sonneborn-Berger order - therefore my preference would be for the Paige tables.

Di Felice gives the dates of the 1938 tournament as 24 July-7 August 1938; and these match the dates of the first and last rounds. And he gives the dates of the 1939 tournament as 9-23 July 1939 - again matching the dates of the first and last rounds.

Chessbase's Megabase 2017 also gives Round 8 as being played on 31 July 1938.

Di Felice has the "Enrique Reinhardt" on the 1938 Paige table as "Heinrich Reinhardt". For the 1939 Olympiad, Olimpbase also has him as "Heinrich Reinhardt". Reinhardt stayed behind in Argentina after the 1939 Olympiad and later changed his first name from "Heinrich" to "Enrique".

Apr-13-20
Premium Chessgames Member
  Tabanus: <chesshistoryinterest> http://anno.onb.ac.at/cgi-content/a... has McGowan's order. http://anno.onb.ac.at/cgi-content/a... also has this order. I typed the table accordingly, game by game, can I keep it please :) I don't really have the time. And are we sure S-B score was used.
Apr-13-20  chesshistoryinterest: <Tabanus>

I suppose I could say I was more or less asking if having crosstables in S-B order is a chessgames.com preference or not.

<are we sure S-B score was used> I suppose we cannot be certain, though it seemed to be the preferred tie-break method in those days (eg this is how Keres came ahead of Fine in the AVRO 1938 tournament).

Looking at both the McGowan tables and your links, it could be that there is nothing more to their order than being alphabetical...

If you did ultimately think that S-B is preferable, but don't have the time, maybe I could edit your tables if I had some way of accessing them (maybe copy and paste somewhere). No big deal, I guess.

Apr-13-20
Premium Chessgames Member
  Tabanus: <chesshistoryinterest> I have a draft ready (1938 only): Game Collection: German Championship 1938 (the Event and Site will be standardized upon voting into TI).

Rather Q&D. <accessing them> Yes if you like you can <clone> the collection (from link at bottom) and then continue. Go ahead :)

Apr-13-20
Premium Chessgames Member
  Tabanus: <I was more or less asking if having crosstables in S-B order is a chessgames.com preference or not.> I have not seen any CG pref., only I always tried to follow the official standings/tiebreak criteria. But here we don't know, so we can choose.
Apr-13-20
Premium Chessgames Member
  Tabanus: Game Collection: German Championship 1939,

with table in S-B order. Will someone take over? I don't have access to McGowan's book on this one, the pages are not shown.

Apr-13-20
Premium Chessgames Member
  Pawn and Two: <Tabanus> I now have a copy of McGowan's book on Kurt Richter. McGowan's crosstable for Bad Oeyhausen 1939 differs from Paige's only in the placement of: Heinicke 7th; Keller 8th; Eisinger 11th & Mueller 13th.
Apr-14-20
Premium Chessgames Member
  Tabanus: <Pawn and Two> Thanks. I've now added the S-B table to Game Collection: German Championship 1938, is it Ok with you? I suppose <chi> is right about the alphabethical order. And Kieninger is 2nd in both tables.

Anything else I should do with 1938? I'm eager to nominate it.

Apr-14-20
Premium Chessgames Member
  Telemus: <1938> The official tournament book by Brinkmann has two crosstables, and there is no indication that any kind of tiebreak was used for players with equal number of points.

The first crosstable is at the beginning of the book and it is a "Deutsche Turniertafel" introduced by Conrad and Post, which is simultaneously a crosstable, a progress table and a pairing table. There is a final column entitled "Rang", which means rank, and there Michel and Kieninger have both "II-III", etc. (Only players in the top half are ranked here.)

The second crosstable is at the end of the book, and it is a usual crosstable where players are sorted according to points. And only by points, because here all pairs and triples of players with equal points are on the same places, which is indicated by brackets around the place numbers.

For the crosstable in the game collection such brackets are probably not possible, but one could write in the first column "2-3" for both Kieniger and Michel, etc., or simply write "2" for both players there.

Apr-14-20
Premium Chessgames Member
  Tabanus: <Telemus> Ok I did that for both years.

Perhaps remove the = signs and have it like in https://www.teleschach.de/historie/... would be prettier? I could do that :)

Apr-14-20
Premium Chessgames Member
  MissScarlett: I'm submitting a game <Walter - Norman Tweed Whitaker, 0-1> from a tournament Whitaker played in Wiesebaden in August 1928, as given in Hilbert's book. Kurt Richter won the event - could someone with McGowan's book (I never did get my free copy) check to see if Walter is identified as the Czech, Max Walter? I suspect it isn't. Richter himself crushed Whitaker.
Apr-14-20
Premium Chessgames Member
  Pawn and Two: <Tabanus> That looks good to me, please proceed. You are correct in that Kieninger was listed 2nd in both Paige's and McGowan's tables, and he is also listed 2nd in Lachaga's table.
Apr-14-20
Premium Chessgames Member
  Tabanus: Think I like the TeleSchach method, please check.
Apr-14-20
Premium Chessgames Member
  Pawn and Two: <MissScarlett> McGowan did not provide any information about the player Walter at the 1928 Wiesbaden tournament. The main tournament at Wiesbaden 1928, was a forty player seven round Swiss, won outright by Richter with a score of 6 points.

Later in his book on Richter, McGowan mentions a blitz tournament in Berlin 1930 at the Café Konig. This tournament was won by Flohr, and a player named Walter finished in 10th and last place. Also, in Appendix A, a gamescore, a draw, is given for Richter vs Walter, from the 1923 Brandenburgischer Schachverbund Congress. No first name or other information was provided by McGowan to further identify Walter.

Apr-14-20  chesshistoryinterest: <Tabanus> I see you already got my 1938 S-B table:)

Generally, I thought the form chessgames wanted the crosstables in was the numbering down the side to match that at the top. But effectively bracketing players with '=', etc is ok to me.

But I do find just having just '=2', etc is a little irritating as it's not immediately clear how many players that place is shared with! (and makes it a bit harder to find column for the player). So my preference is '2-3=', etc. Anyway, I've adjusted my table that way and you might like to have a look to see what it looks like Game Collection: German Championship 1938 It's not quite as neat, but I think it's significantly clearer what's going on. (An alternative could be to just have the numbers 1-16 down the LHS as before and have a separate column after the points giving the placings.)

In his "Chess Tournament Crosstables", Gaige used to use the '2-3', etc system without '=' signs. He also used names instead of numbers across the top - that I'm not so keen about.

Apr-14-20  chesshistoryinterest: I have also created a crosstable for the 1895 Vienna Chess Society Master tournament (the one <Telemus> was having trouble with) here: Game Collection: Master tournament Vienna Chess Society 1895

In this, I have included the results for the games played by Holzwarth (who withdrew after 4 rounds and had his score cancelled). I think it is best practice to include any played games that today would be eligible for rating (for example, this has been done in the table for the 1967 Interzonal for Fischer's games). And it makes it easier for anybody attempting to do historical ratings. For example, Rod Edwards did not include these 4 games in his Edo ratings because he was not aware of them. Had he been so, I am almost certain that he would have included them.

<Tabanus> A couple of quick questions:

(1) So I know what is the preferred practice: You prefer not to head up the points column with 'Pts'?

(2) For my interest: For draws, do you prefer '1/2' or '=' in the table? Both ways have their pluses and minuses and I can never quite decide which is preferable. My main objection to '=' is that a game lost by default is given a '-' and this can be hard to distinguish from '='. On the other hand, using '=' makes the table clearer to look at.

Apr-14-20
Premium Chessgames Member
  Tabanus: <chesshistoryinterest> Hope I did not mix you up with someone else :)

<(1) So I know what is the preferred practice: You prefer not to head up the points column with 'Pts'?> Err... yes, I stopped adding Pts after some years, Thought it was unnecessary and prettier without.

<do you prefer '1/2' or '=' in the table?> I'm using 1/2, but = is Ok with me. I think the author should decide.

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