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< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 784 OF 1784 ·
Later Kibitzing> |
| Nov-14-07 | | Hugin: Kwid Rybka played on the black side of the table in a standard time game....That alone should tell you it's possible. Kwid put any gm up in the world facing Rybka in a otb match and they lose big time..... |
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| Nov-14-07 | | g.mueller: kwid: Nov-14-07
< Hugin >
< 27.f4! (Secures the important outpost Ne5)...... Kf6 28.Bxe4 get's rid of a annoying knight.. fxe4 29.Rd2 Rb4 30.h4 Starts action on Kingside..>
Good work! But,at move 29.
Hi team ,this also was my analysis 29...g5!
[Event "17.Be5 Bf6"]
[Site "xxx"]
[Date "2007.11.04"]
[Round "1"]
[White "World - Hugin"]
[Black "GJT"]
[Result "1/2-1/2"]
[ECO "A88"]
[PlyCount "88"]
[EventDate "2007.??.??"]
1. d4 f5 2. g3 Nf6 3. Bg2 g6 4. Nf3 Bg7 5. O-O O-O 6. c4 d6 7. Nc3 c6 8. Qb3
Kh8 9. Rd1 Na6 10. Qa3 Nc7 11. d5 Bd7 12. Rb1 a5 13. dxc6 bxc6 14. c5 Ne4 15.
cxd6 exd6 16. Bf4 d5 17. Be5 Bf6 18. Rbc1 Ne6 19. b3 Kg8 20. Bxf6 Qxf6 21. Na4
Rab8 22. e3 Rb5 23. Qb2 Qxb2 24. Nxb2 Rc8 25. Ne5 Be8 26. Na4 Kg7 27. f4 Kf6
28. Bxe4 fxe4
29. Rd2 g5
30. h4 gxf4 31. gxf4 Kf5 32. Rg2 Rb7 33. Nc5 Nxc5 34.
Rxc5 a4 35. bxa4 Ke6 36. Rd2 Rb1+ 37. Kh2 Re1 38. Rc3 c5 39. a5 Rb1 40. a6 Rb4
41. a7 Ra4 42. Rb3 Rxa7 43. Rb6+ Ke7 44. Rxd5 c4 1/2-1/2 |
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| Nov-14-07 | | Boomie: <MindCtrol9: 17. ...Re8 18.Nxe4 fxe4 19. Qc3> 19...Rxe5 is winning for black. |
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| Nov-14-07 | | Hugin: Kwid the purpose of 29 Rd2 is to avoid black moves the d4 it also makes it possible to double in c line..Rd2 is a very flexible rook move and such moves are often seen at the very highest level. |
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| Nov-14-07 | | Hugin: Kwid i will go a bit further and say Toga played very impressive in that game..I can't find any stratetical mistake in togas play at all. |
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| Nov-14-07 | | kwid: Nov-14-07 < C: edda zeitz
"short summary/evaluation of the outcome >
This shredder main line is erroneous to say the least. 17. Be5 Bf6 18. Rbc1 Ne6 19. Na4 Ra7 20. Bxf6+ Qxf6 21. Nb6 Be8 22. b4 a4 23. b5 Rb7 24. Nxa4 Rxb5 25. e3 Nc3 26. Nd4 Nxd4 27. f4 g5 28. fxg5 Qg6 29. Rf1 f4 30. g4 Kg8 31. h4 Bd7 32. Nc5 Be8 33. Ne4 Rb2 34. Nc5 Rc2 35. Qb4 fxe3 36. Nd3 Rd2 37. Nb2 c5 38. Rxc3 Bd7 39. Rb1 Rc2 40. Ra1 Rxc3
41. Qb3 Rf1+ 1/2-1/2
Starting to look from the
back:
move 40.Ra1 if we play Rxg2 GJT has a mate in #5.
but at move 37 we could mate him in #1 by playing Qf8. I think this is a joke and thus go no further with my analysing this line. yskid could you please provide an explantion for this errors?
Or do I read this PGN wrong?
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| Nov-14-07 | | g.mueller: <kb2ct: Rybka knew it was in trouble and went into a deep think.> 1.d4 f5 2.g3 Nf6 3.Bg2 g6 4.Nf3 Bg7 5.0–0 0–0 6.c4 d6 7.Nc3 c6 8.Qb3 Kh8 9.Rd1 Na6 10.Qa3 Nc7 11.d5 Bd7 12.Rb1 a5 13.dxc6 bxc6 14.c5 Ne4 15.cxd6 exd6 16.Bf4 d5 17.Be5 Re8 18.Bxg7+ Kxg7 19.Rbc1 Qe7 20.Qxe7+ Rxe7 21.Na4 Rb8 22.Nd4!
< [22.b3? Nb5 23.e3 g5 24.Ne1 g4 25.Nd3 Nbd6 26.h3 h5 27.Nac5 Nxc5 28.Rxc5 Nb7 29.Rc2 gxh3 30.Bxh3 Rh8 31.Bg2 h4 32.gxh4 Rxh4 33.f4 Rxe3 34.Ne5 Be8 35.Nxc6 Rxf4 36.Rxd5 Kf6 37.Nxa5 Bf7 38.Nxb7 Re1+ 39.Kh2 Rh4+ 40.Kg3 Rg4+ 41.Kf2 Rxg2+ 42.Kxg2 Bxd5+ 43.Kf2 Rh1 44.Rc7=] > 22...Rb4 23.Bxe4! Rxa4 24.Bb1 Rb4 25.b3 Rb6 26.Rc5 a4 27.bxa4 Na6 28.Ra5 c5 29.Bd3 c4 30.Bc2 Nb4 31.e3 Nxc2 32.Nxc2 Rb2 33.Rc1 Rxa2 34.Nb4 Rd2 35.Rxd5 Rb2 36.Nd3! cxd3 37.Rc7 d2 38.Rcxd7 Rxd7 39.Rxd7+ Kf6 40.Kf1 g5 41.a5 Ra2 42.Ke2 Rxa5 43.Rxh7 Rd5 44.Kd1 Rd8 45.h3 Rd3 46.g4 f4 47.exf4 gxf4 48.Rh5 Ke6 49.Rh8 Ke5 50.Re8+ Kf6 51.Rf8+ Ke5 52.h4 Rh3 53.Re8+ Kd4 54.Kxd2 Rxh4 55.f3 Rh2+ 56.Ke1 Kd5 57.Re4 Rb2 58.Rxf4 + M33 Here as PGN
[Event "17.Be5 Re8 19.Rbc1 "]
[Site "xxx"]
[Date "2007.11.04"]
[Round "1"]
[White "World"]
[Black "GJT"]
[Result "1-0"]
[ECO "A88"]
[Annotator "Müller"]
[PlyCount "115"]
[EventDate "2007.??.??"]
1. d4 f5 2. g3 Nf6 3. Bg2 g6 4. Nf3 Bg7 5. O-O O-O 6. c4 d6 7. Nc3 c6 8. Qb3
Kh8 9. Rd1 Na6 10. Qa3 Nc7 11. d5 Bd7 12. Rb1 a5 13. dxc6 bxc6 14. c5 Ne4 15.
cxd6 exd6 16. Bf4 d5 17. Be5 Re8 18. Bxg7+ Kxg7 19. Rbc1 Qe7 20. Qxe7+ Rxe7 21.
Na4 Rb8 22. Nd4 (22. b3 Nb5 23. e3 g5 24. Ne1 g4 25. Nd3 Nbd6 26. h3 h5 27.
Nac5 Nxc5 28. Rxc5 Nb7 29. Rc2 gxh3 30. Bxh3 Rh8 31. Bg2 h4 32. gxh4 Rxh4 33.
f4 Rxe3 34. Ne5 Be8 35. Nxc6 Rxf4 36. Rxd5 Kf6 37. Nxa5 Bf7 38. Nxb7 Re1+ 39.
Kh2 Rh4+ 40. Kg3 Rg4+ 41. Kf2 Rxg2+ 42. Kxg2 Bxd5+ 43. Kf2 Rh1 44. Rc7 $11)
22... Rb4 23. Bxe4 $1 Rxa4 24. Bb1 Rb4 25. b3 Rb6 26. Rc5 a4 27. bxa4 Na6 28.
Ra5 c5 29. Bd3 c4 30. Bc2 Nb4 31. e3 Nxc2 32. Nxc2 Rb2 33. Rc1 Rxa2 34. Nb4 Rd2
35. Rxd5 Rb2 36. Nd3 $1 cxd3 37. Rc7 d2 38. Rcxd7 Rxd7 39. Rxd7+ Kf6 40. Kf1 g5
41. a5 Ra2 42. Ke2 Rxa5 43. Rxh7 Rd5 44. Kd1 Rd8 45. h3 Rd3 46. g4 f4 47. exf4
gxf4 48. Rh5 Ke6 49. Rh8 Ke5 50. Re8+ Kf6 51. Rf8+ Ke5 52. h4 Rh3 53. Re8+ Kd4
54. Kxd2 Rxh4 55. f3 Rh2+ 56. Ke1 Kd5 57. Re4 Rb2 58. Rxf4 + M33 1-0 |
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| Nov-14-07 | | kwid: Nov-14-07
< Hugin: Kwid i will go a bit further and say Toga played very impressive in that game..I can't find any stratetical mistake in togas play at all.>Yes your assessment of toga is correct. No arguments from me in this regard. But since you have provided data which may well become our main line, we need to study the position after Rd2 to see if we can get more than a draw with it. |
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Nov-14-07
 | | Tabanus: <g.mueller> I think he'll play 23...Rxe4! not 23...Rxa4 23...Rxe4 24.Nc5 Rbxd4 25.Rxd4 Rxd4 26.Nxd7 Rd2 27.Rxc6 Ne8 28.Rc5 a4 29.a3 Nd6 30.Kf1 Rd1+ 31.Kg2 Rd2 32.Kf3 Ne4 33.Ra5 Rxb2 34.Rxd5 Nd2+ 35.Kf4 Nc4 36.Rd4 Nxa3 37.Rxa4 Nb1 = |
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| Nov-14-07 | | benjinathan: <Waitaka> That is a really good idea. I hope that CG adopts your suggestion. |
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| Nov-14-07 | | Boomie: Team members continue to hold speculative discussions on the main page, which is unbelievably cluttered with notation. Please confine the speculation and notation to the forums. Use the main page for summaries, questions, or invitations to join a discussion. I think a lot of Team members are turned off by all this speculative detail on the main page. We don't have time to see if your "new" idea is busted 25 moves from here. We want to see summaries in plain language. For example, post "This line is showing some promise. Come help out at forum X." When the time to move approaches, each forum should post a final summary of results to the main page. |
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Nov-14-07
| | Tabanus: <Boomie> I don't agree and can't see any difference from what we've done earlier. I think the main page *should* be used for speculative discussions, with reference to the more serious analysis we post in the forums. |
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| Nov-14-07 | | Hugin: Kwid what is important here is this line as posted before...
<Toga 11 1.3.1 crushed Rybka 2.3.2a mp in this standard time game and the most important part was in my eyes the following.*18.Rbc1 Ne6 19.b3 wants to fight for the a1- h8 diagonal. Kg8 20.Bxf6 Qxf6 21.Na4 Rab8 22.e3 Rb5 23.Qb2 Qxb2 24.Nxb2 Rc8 25.Ne5! *> I think this few moves is the best way to meet 17 Be5 Bf6** variation....The idea 18 Rbc1 21 Na4 22 e3 23 Qb2 and 25 Ne5 key moves... |
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| Nov-14-07 | | Willem Wallekers: <g.mueller> I think he'll play 23...Rxa4 24. Bb1 Rb4 25. b3 <Nb5>
reaching a 4R endgame through
25. Nxc6 Bxc6 26. Rxc6 Rxe2 27. Rc5 Na3 28. Rxa5 Nxb1 29. Rxb1 Rd4.
click for larger viewDon't see much chance here :-( |
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| Nov-14-07 | | kwid: Nov-14-07 < edda zeitz >
<we have 3 key questions to answer: 1)Should we (assuming Black plays 17. Re8 18. Bxg7+ Kxg7) continue with 19.Nd4 or with Rbc1 (assuming e3 to be weaker)? 2)Should we keep our LSB on g2 or should we exchange him? Is he weak or is he strong? (I tend to think we should keep him.) 3) Should we exchange Qs or should we keep our Q? > Well, I wish we had the correct answers for your questions.
In a nut shell, if we had those answers we would know the outcome
of this game.
But seriously, we certainly have to try to do our best as team
to provide those answers before we will be confronted to make
our choices.
Since you ask me I will try to answer as follows:
Disregarding your specific questions,I will state again that we
need to have long range planning with achievable goals first. We must identify potential weaknesses in his armor and map out the
possible ways to exploit them into hopefully winnable endgame positions. This strategy shall be the guiding principle for selecting our best
choice in reply to his anticipated moves.
The correct answer to your questions will be derived from analysis
focused to reach set objectives. In simpler terms, analysis will
show if 19.Nd4 or Rbc1 is best for us. As to evaluating the strength
of LSB will be relative to the expected pawn structure etc. Queen
exchange will be decided if it helps our cause trying to win according to our plan. |
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| Nov-14-07 | | Ceri: 17... Re8 might be liked by computers, but it still gives White some tough choices: 1. d4 f5 2. g3 Nf6 3. Bg2 g6
4. c4 Bg7 5. Nc3 O-O 6. Nf3 d6
7. O-O c6 8. Qb3 Na6 9. Rd1 Kh8
10. Qa3 Nc7 11. d5 Bd7 12. Rb1 a5
13. dxc6 bxc6 14. c5 Ne4 15. cxd6 exd6 16. Bf4 d5 17. Be5 Re8 18. Bxg7+ Kxg7 19. Nd4 Qe7 20. Nxe4
(20. Bxe4 fxe4 21. Na4 Ne6 22. Nxe6+ Qxe6 23. Nc5 Qf7)
20... fxe4 21. Qc3 Qf6
If White follows the Nd4 theme, then he could be forced to decide very soon whether or not to exchange Queens on e7 or take out the e4 Knight. In the short term, neither capture on e4 looks as full of tension as the positions deriving from 17... Bf6. Of course, there is the Rc1 idea, rather than Nd4 but these are very long-range choices and White must be ready for them. Cheers,
Ceri |
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| Nov-14-07 | | g.mueller: <Tabanus: <g.mueller> I think he'll play 23...Rxe4! not 23...Rxa4
23...Rxe4 24.Nc5 Rbxd4 25.Rxd4 Rxd4 26.Nxd7 Rd2 27.Rxc6 Ne8 28.Rc5 a4 29.a3 Nd6 30.Kf1 Rd1+ 31.Kg2 Rd2 32.Kf3 Ne4 33.Ra5 Rxb2 34.Rxd5 Nd2+ 35.Kf4 Nc4 36.Rd4 Nxa3 37.Rxa4 Nb1 = Willem Wallekers: <g.mueller> I think he'll play 23...Rxa4 24. Bb1 Rb4 25. b3 <Nb5> reaching a 4R endgame through
25. Nxc6 Bxc6 26. Rxc6 Rxe2 27. Rc5 Na3 28. Rxa5 Nxb1 29. Rxb1 Rd4.
Don't see much chance here :-(>
Hi I agree , it have no win in this continuation.
Günter
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| Nov-14-07 | | Hugin: <g.mueller: kwid: Nov-14-07
< Hugin >
< 27.f4! (Secures the important outpost Ne5)...... Kf6 28.Bxe4 get's rid of a annoying knight.. fxe4 29.Rd2 Rb4 30.h4 Starts action on Kingside..> Good work! But,at move 29.Hi team ,this also was my analysis 29...g5!
[Event "17.Be5 Bf6"]
[Site "xxx"]
[Date "2007.11.04"]
[Round "1"]
[White "World - Hugin"]
[Black "GJT"]
[Result "1/2-1/2"]
[ECO "A88"]
[PlyCount "88"]
[EventDate "2007.??.??"]
1. d4 f5 2. g3 Nf6 3. Bg2 g6 4. Nf3 Bg7 5. O-O O-O 6. c4 d6 7. Nc3 c6 8. Qb3 Kh8 9. Rd1 Na6 10. Qa3 Nc7 11. d5 Bd7 12. Rb1 a5 13. dxc6 bxc6 14. c5 Ne4 15. cxd6 exd6 16. Bf4 d5 17. Be5 Bf6 18. Rbc1 Ne6 19. b3 Kg8 20. Bxf6 Qxf6 21. Na4 Rab8 22. e3 Rb5 23. Qb2 Qxb2 24. Nxb2 Rc8 25. Ne5 Be8 26. Na4 Kg7 27. f4 Kf6 28. Bxe4 fxe4 29. Rd2 g5
30. h4 gxf4 31. gxf4 Kf5 32. Rg2 Rb7 33. Nc5 Nxc5 34. Rxc5 a4 35. bxa4 Ke6 36. Rd2 Rb1+ 37. Kh2 Re1 38. Rc3 c5 39. a5 Rb1 40. a6 Rb4 41. a7 Ra4 42. Rb3 Rxa7 43. Rb6+ Ke7 44. Rxd5 c4 1/2-1/2> Why 30 h4? 30 Nc3 much better. |
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Nov-14-07
| | Tabanus: <Boomie> is right in that it's difficult to follow all the analyses at the moment. But I've tried, and here's what I think is the present main line. Correct me if I'm wrong. 17...Re8 18.Bxg7+ Kxg7
19.Rbc1 Qe7 20.Qxe7+ Rxe7 21.Na4 Rb8 (0.55/22 21...Nb5 22.Nb6 Ra6 23.Nxd7 Rxd7 24.Ne5 Rd6 0.56/20 25.f4) 22.e3 A. 22...Nb5 0.35/19 23.Bf1 or 23.h4
B. 22...Rb4 23.b3 Nb5 24.Rd3! 0.31/23
C. 22...Ne6 23.Ne5 Nd8 24.f4 Nd6 0.29/22
If GMJT overlooks anything at all it could be <twinlark>'s move 24.Rd3 which pops up at about 22-ply or about 39-ply from our current position. Neither A, B nor C have been tested much beyond the 25th move. |
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| Nov-14-07 | | Boomie: I wonder if GMT will play 17...Re8. Keep in mind that engine ratings don't mean much to him. He is interested in his own ideas and just uses the engine to check for blunders. My guess is he wants to operate on the f-file like a good Dutch player. I don't see any compelling reason to move the rook to the e-file. |
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Nov-14-07
 | | rinus: <Boomie> 'Dutch' in what sense? Defence or nationality? Or even both? |
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Nov-14-07
| | rinus: <Tabanus: <g.mueller> I think he'll play 23...Rxe4! not 23...Rxa4> After <17.Be5 Re8 18.Bxg7+ Kxg7 19.Rbc1 Qe7 20.Qxe7+ Rxe7 21.Na4 Rb8 22.Nd4 Rb4 23.Bxe4 Rxe4> and then <24.Nc5 Rbxd4 25.Rxd4 Rxd4 26.Nxd7> 26...Rd2 27.Rxc6 Ne8 28.Rc5 a4 29.a3 Rxb2 30.Rxd5 Rxe2 31.Rd4 Ra2 32.Rxa4 Nd6 33.Nc5 Nb5 34.Kg2 h6 35.Kf3 Rc2 36.Nd3 g5 37.h4 Nd6 38.hxg5 hxg5 Fruit 2.3.1 : +0.38. Depth: 24. Nodes: 1267.4 M Who should I trust? What should I trust? |
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Nov-14-07
| | Tabanus: <rinus> LOL, both! Or none. Or try 22.b3 |
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| Nov-14-07 | | kb2ct: Rbc1 is clearly the way to meet Bf6 next and it explains why the chess engines prefer the more forcing Re8.
It also seems to suggest that Rbc1 is the best move if he forces the bishps off with Re8 1. d4 f5 2. g3 Nf6 3. Bg2 g6 4. Nf3 Bg7 5. O-O O-O 6. c4 d6 7. Nc3 c6 8. Qb3
Kh8 9. Rd1 Na6 10. Qa3 Nc7 11. d5 Bd7 12. Rb1 a5 13. dxc6 bxc6 14. c5 Ne4 15.
cxd6 exd6 16. Bf4 d5 17. Be5 Bf6 18. Rbc1
click for larger viewAnalysis by Rybka 2.3.2a 32-bit :
18...Ne6 19.Na4 Rf7 20.b3 Kg8 21.Qb2 Be7 22.e3 Rc8 23.Qe2 N6c5 24.Ng5 Bxg5 25.Nxc5 ² (0.36) Depth: 23 05:33:17 901031kN
18...Ne6 19.Na4 Rf7 20.b3 Kg8 21.Qb2 Be7 22.e3 Rc8 23.Qe2 Bf6 24.Bb2 N6g5 25.Nxg5 ² (0.37) Depth: 24 08:41:57 1422520kN
I trust everyone realizes that the standards have risen again and that we are playing to keep chances alive. Even the wins are very difficult, most exceeding chess engine analysis at 29 ply. :0)
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| Nov-14-07 | | Boomie: <rinus: <Boomie> 'Dutch' in what sense? Defence or nationality? Or even both?> Yes. I try to add humor whenever possible. I'm delighted you enjoyed my little double entendre. |
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