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< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 178 OF 182 ·
Later Kibitzing> |
| Sep-15-13 | | stunningmove: <YouRang> <DL> please analyze the ending without a black Rxg2. It is a computer generated mistake. Black cannot afford the tempo to take it. Please analyze and defeat the variations team Black had that I listed in my recent post. <morph> Hello my friend. Here are the moves where Black might have changed courses. 12...Rb8 preventing a4, this was a somewhat close vote 15...Rb8 instead of the odd Bd7
19... Kh8 instead of 19...Qd7 which won by one vote. A player changed his vote with 5 minutes left in voting to swing the tally. Kh8 was <Hassan7>'s idea and a good one. It would have led to a much more tactical game. At least those are the spots where the game could have taken dramatic turns. By the way, why do you think team black had an ELO advantage? Certainly <kwid> is a great player but I'm not sure the rest of us outrank you. |
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| Sep-15-13 | | YouRang: <stunningmove: <YouRang> <DL> please analyze the ending without a black Rxg2. It is a computer generated mistake. > I think 38...Rxg2 loses too, but since <Dan> was defending that line, I thought it appropriate for someone to present evidence for the prosecution. BTW, in the line you were looking at: <31. Kd1 f5 32. Kc2 fxe4 33. Rd5 Rf8 34. c4! Rf2+ 35. Kc3 Kf7 36. Rxa5 Ke6 37. b4 e3!>, you have white playing 37.b4, whereas the mainline calls for <37.Ra6+ Kf5 38.c5!>
click for larger view
This is the position that looking lost. |
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| Sep-15-13 | | Nickster: Just got home from work. Lots of good posts today. Very tired at this moment. I'll try to post some of the engine outputs tomorrow. |
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| Sep-15-13 | | stunningmove: <YouRang> yes when I turned on "analyze" on my computer 37.Ra6+ pops up as highest rated. 37.Ra6+ Kf5 38.c5 <e3> A.39.b4 Rd2 transposes to lines we had analyzed to a draw listed in my post. B.39.c6 Ke6 40.b4 Rd2 41.b5 Kd6 42.Ra7 Rd4 43.Rd7+ Ke6 44.Rxd4 exd4 45.Kd3 Kd6 1/2 1/2 There are a million sub-variations but all seem to draw. |
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| Sep-15-13 | | stunningmove: Hey <Nickster> looking forward to our game together with GMSW. <You Rang> and I lived with this analysis for more than a week playing out countless variations. The two moves that seem to work for black in almost every variation are e3 and then Rd2. We learned that by trail and error. When I turned on my computer after the game I saw they weren't the highest ranked moves but if you force them, black seems to draw all the time. |
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| Sep-15-13 | | YouRang: <stunningmove: <YouRang> yes when I turned on "analyze" on my computer 37.Ra6+ pops up as highest rated.
37.Ra6+ Kf5 38.c5 <e3> A.39.b4 Rd2 transposes to lines we had analyzed to a draw listed in my post.> Right, which would be <40.Ra1!>, and then your draw line continues with this: <40. .. Ke4! 41. c6 Rd3+ 42. Kc4 Rd2 43. Kb5 Rc2 44. Kb6 Kd5 45.Rd1+ Ke6 46. Re1 Kd6 47. b5 e2 48. Kb7 e4 > I think white can improve. After <42...Rd2>
click for larger view
Now instead of 43.Kb5, try <43.Kc5!> It may continue: <43...Rc2+ 44.Kd6! Rd2+ 45.Ke6! Rc2 46.Kd7 Rd2+ 47.Kc8 e2 48.Re1> I think this is heading to 1-0, unless you can find black improvements. |
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| Sep-15-13 | | Nickster: < <stunningmove: <YouRang> yes when I turned on "analyze" on my computer 37.Ra6+ pops up as highest rated. 37.Ra6+ Kf5 38.c5 <e3> A.39.b4 Rd2 transposes to lines we had analyzed to a draw listed in my post.> Right, which would be <40.Ra1!>, and then your draw line continues with this: <40. .. Ke4! 41. c6 Rd3+ 42. Kc4 Rd2 43. Kb5 Rc2 44. Kb6 Kd5 45.Rd1+ Ke6 46. Re1 Kd6 47. b5 e2 48. Kb7 e4 > I think white can improve. After <42...Rd2> Now instead of 43.Kb5, try <43.Kc5!>> 43.Kc5! Nice!! |
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| Sep-15-13 | | stunningmove: <YouRang> 43.Kc5 is 1-0 nice find. I love having a computer on. It saves countless hours of pushing wood!!! |
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| Sep-16-13 | | morfishine: <Stunningmove> Good to hear from you! Thanks for filling in some of the other possibilities as I was only referencing MCO (2011) Any discussions on team strengths should probably be taken with a 'grain of salt' due to variables, but since you asked, I first heard it from <OhioChessFan> who half-jokingly posted: Team White vs Team Black, 2013 So I decided to scan the rosters and figured any advantage was minimal at best. (For example, <kwid> on your side is balanced by <cro777> on our side). I thought <KC> and <Hanza> were 2 of the higher-rated players for Black (besides <kwid>), but they didn't play. At the end, I was curious as to who was actually participating An excellent post that touched on (1) team strengths & (2) White's decision to play <31.Rb2> instead of 31.Kd1 was made by <YouRang>: Team White vs Team Black, 2013 This gets to the point of White's problem: 31.Kd1 was seemingly refuted by 31...f5, which left us two choices: (1) 31.Rb2 & (2) 31.b4; We figured 31.Rb2 was the next best choice (being more flexible) <jepflast> Put it best with this post: Team White vs Team Black, 2013 It all depends on who participates... Oh, and I'm glad you guys reasoned out why White declined and no insult was intended. We finally got the vote and by 1 vote! Onto Williams! I hope we get a complicated KID or Alekhines :) ***** |
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| Sep-16-13 | | Nickster: <morfishine: <Stunningmove> Good to hear from you! Thanks for filling in some of the other possibilities as I was only referencing MCO (2011) Any discussions on team strengths should probably be taken with a 'grain of salt' due to variables, but since you asked, I first heard it from <OhioChessFan> who half-jokingly posted: Team White vs Team Black, 2013 So I decided to scan the rosters and figured any advantage was minimal at best. (For example, <kwid> on your side is balanced by <cro777> on our side). I thought <KC> and <Hanza> were 2 of the higher-rated players for Black (besides <kwid>), but they didn't play. At the end, I was curious as to who was actually participating An excellent post that touched on (1) team strengths & (2) White's decision to play <31.Rb2> instead of 31.Kd1 was made by <YouRang>: Team White vs Team Black, 2013 This gets to the point of White's problem: 31.Kd1 was seemingly refuted by 31...f5, which left us two choices: (1) 31.Rb2 & (2) 31.b4; We figured 31.Rb2 was the next best choice (being more flexible) <jepflast> Put it best with this post: Team White vs Team Black, 2013 It all depends on who participates... Oh, and I'm glad you guys reasoned out why White declined and no insult was intended. We finally got the vote and by 1 vote! Onto Williams! I hope we get a complicated KID or Alekhines :)> Agreed. Nicely put. |
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| Sep-16-13 | | YouRang: I suppose it's time to move on to the GMSW game. As usual, I'll probably do more observing than posting during the opening phases of that game. I'll probably just listen to what our strongest players have to say (e.g. <kwid>, <zsoydd>, <Ceri>, <imag>, etc.) and use my votes to support them. ~~~
But once more to all involved, thanks for the good team-vs-team game. It looks like white probably missed a win, and black was fortunate to escape with a draw. (<Nickster>, take it easy with the head-banging-on-wall activity; we need your head for the GMSW game ;-) As far as I'm concerned, the "potential fatal flaw" in black's game was somewhere in the opening, and it was so deep that it would never be found even if the strongest and fastest engines worked on it for 20 years. |
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| Sep-16-13 | | hoodrobin: <YouRang: the "potential fatal flaw" in black's game was somewhere in the opening, and it was so deep that it would never be found even if the strongest and fastest engines worked on it for 20 years.> My gut feeling is the same for White's win. Thank you anyway for your interesting try. |
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| Sep-16-13 | | WinKing: I'm still not sold this was a win for white. The follow up analysis(w/engines) is interesting but not conclusive IMHO. There are other move variations that could still be tried. White applied some pressure in this game & black defended well - result 1/2. Won't win a 'brilliancy prize' but ok nonetheless. Nice effort put forth by both sides. |
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| Sep-16-13 | | stunningmove: <YouRang> fatal flaw? By playing 12...Bg5 black allowed a second weak pawn. In and if itself this is not fatal, the trade off is to accept the weakness in exchange for Kside counter play. Black then chose 19...Qd7 over counter play with the predetermined thought it lead to a draw via elimination of the weak d pawn and mass trade offs. Black's weak a pawn and white's passed c pawn were defensible, it was the third weakness, the back rank mate threat that allowed white the Kd1 tactic which essentially gained a tempo. In the end it would have taken perfect play on white's part to win which none if us could see without a computer. But it now appears it was winnable. By a single tempo. So IMHO passive play by black gave white the opportunity. Passive play by white (Rb2) closed the door. |
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| Sep-16-13 | | YouRang: <stunningmove> Maybe you're right, and I like your final summary statement. But surely it's just the nature of chess that we could spin around the "what if" scenarios for the rest of our lives and still never know for sure. |
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| Sep-16-13 | | Nickster: This particular line is giving me trouble.
31.Kd1 f5 32.Kc2 fxe4 33.Rd5 Rf8 34.c4 Rf2+ 35.Kc3 Kf7 36.Rxa5 Ke6 37.Ra6+ Kf5 38.c5 e3 39.b4 e4 
click for larger viewHow does white break through here? 40.b5 or 40.c6?
40.b5 Rf1 41.Ra2 maybe. |
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| Sep-16-13 | | Thanh Phan: <morfishine: <YouRang><Danlanglois><Stunningmove> ... But if one wants to get to the heart of the game as quickly as possible, doesn’t it make sense to start the analysis earlier? For example, if its shown that 31.Kd1 wins, then that necessitates going back to find where Black erred. Faster would be to start from a position where White has an advantage, then work both ways looking (1) forward where White possibly slipped and (2) backwards to where Black may have played a less than accurate move contributing to White’s initial advantage. Narrowing it down this way is quicker and more efficient.> I like your approach towards finding better moves, glad you are willing to express that type of planning, it could help during our games in the future as well |
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| Sep-16-13 | | YouRang: <Nickster: This particular line is giving me trouble. 31.Kd1 f5 32.Kc2 fxe4 33.Rd5 Rf8 34.c4 Rf2+ 35.Kc3 Kf7 36.Rxa5 Ke6 37.Ra6+ Kf5 38.c5 e3 39.b4 e4 How does white break through here? 40.b5 or 40.c6?
40.b5 Rf1 41.Ra2 maybe.
>
Your 40.b5 looks good to me.
Then <41...Ke5 42.c6 Kd6 43.Re2 Rb1 44.Kc4 Rc1+ 45.Kb4 Rb1+ 46.Ka5 Kc7 47.Rxe3 Ra1+ 48.Kb4 Kb6 49.Rc3 Rb1+>
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<50.Ka3 Kc7 51.Rb3 Ra1+ 52.Kb2> My engine is starting to smell 1-0 here. See any improvements for black? |
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| Sep-16-13 | | Nickster: 31.Kd1 f5 32.Kc2 fxe4 33.Rd5 Rf8 34.c4 Rf2+ 35.Kc3 Kf7 36.Rxa5 Ke6 37.Ra6+ Kf5 38.c5 e3 39.b4 e4 40.b5 Rf1 41.Ra2
click for larger viewAnalysis by Houdini 3 Pro w32: depth=29
1.  (0.28): 41...Rb1 42.Kc4 Ke5 43.Rc2 Rd1 44.b6 Rb1 45.g3 g6 2.  (0.86): 41...Ke5 42.c6 Kd6 43.Re2 Rf5 44.Kc4 Rc5+ 45.Kb4 Re5 3. (0.86): 41...Rf2 42.Ra7 Ke6 43.c6 Rf1 44.Ra2 Kd6 4. (1.12): 41...Ke6 42.Kd4 Rb1 43.b6 Rb4+ 44.Kxe3 Kd5 <YouRang> <41...Rb1> is really tough to crack. This line may save black. Houdini 3 and Stockfish 4 are both having trouble here. |
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| Sep-16-13 | | WinKing: I get pretty much the same thing as you <Nickster> after... <31.Kd1 f5 32.Kc2 fxe4 33.Rd5 Rf8 34.c4 Rf2+ 35.Kc3 Kf7 36.Rxa5 Ke6
37.Ra6+ Kf5 38.c5 e3 39.b4 e4 40.b5 Rf1 41.Ra2>
click for larger viewAnalysis by Houdini 3 x64: Depth=30/76 10075 kN/s
1. = (0.30): 41...Rb1 42.Kc4 Ke5 43.Rc2 Rd1 44.b6 Rb1 45.g3 g6 2. (1.01): 41...Ke5 42.c6 Kd6 43.Re2 Kc7 44.Rxe3 Rb1 45.Kc4 Kb6 3. (1.01): 41...Rf2 42.Ra7 Ke6 43.c6 Rf1 44.Ra2 Rb1 45.Kc4 Kd6 4. (1.51): 41...Ke6 42.Kd4 Rb1 43.b6 Rb4+ 44.Kxe3 Kd5 45.Rc2 Rb3+ After sliding forward Houdini seems to like 44.c6 better than 44.b6. Your right though this is looking pretty drawish. <41...Rb1 42.Kc4 Ke5 43.Rc2 Rd1> 
click for larger viewAnalysis by Houdini 3 x64: Depth=30/76 10014 kN/s
1. = (0.23): 44.c6 Kd6 45.Kb3 Rb1+ 46.Ka4
2. = (0.00): 44.Kb3 Rd3+ 45.Kb2 Rd2 46.Rxd2 exd2 47.Kc2 Kd4 3. = (0.00): 44.b6 Rb1 45.g3 h5 46.h3 g5 47.h4 g4
4. = (0.00): 44.h4 Rd2 45.Kc3 Rd5 46.c6 Kd6 47.Kb4 Rd2 <44.c6 Kd6 45.Kb3 Rb1+ 46.Ka4> 
click for larger viewAfter 46...Kc7 I don't see how white makes progress. |
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| Sep-16-13 | | Nickster: <WinKing> Yep. That's what I'm seeing too. 31.Kd1 f5 32.Kc2 fxe4 33.Rd5 Rf8 34.c4 Rf2+ 35.Kc3 Kf7 36.Rxa5 Ke6 37.Ra6+ Kf5 38.c5 e3 39.b4 
click for larger viewAnalysis by Stockfish 4 64bit: depth=33
1. (0.66): 39...Rxg2 40.Ra1 Rd2 41.b5 Rd5
2. (1.11): 39...e4 40.c6 Ke6 41.b5 Kd6
3.  (1.51): 39...Rf1 40.Ra2 Rf2 41.Ra8 Rd2
4. (1.51): 39...Rd2 40.Ra1 Ke4 41.c6 Rd3+
5. (1.91): 39...Rf4 40.b5 Rf1 41.Ra2 Ke6
6. (2.58): 39...g6 40.c6 Ke6 41.b5 Kd6 42.Ra8 Rf1 These are the top 6 lines. All the line lose for black except line 2. Of all the deep engine analysis I've done the last five days, this is the <only> line that holds. Somehow that makes me feel somewhat better :-)
I tried other moves instead of <39.b4> but nothing seems to work. |
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| Sep-17-13 | | DanLanglois: (31.Kd1 f5 32.Kc2 fxe4 33.Rd5 Rf8 34.c4 Rf2+ 35.Kc3 Kf7 36.Rxa5 Ke6 37.Ra6+ Kf5 38.c5 e3 39.b4) 38. c5 e3 39. c6 Ke6 40. b4 Rf1 41. Kd3 Rb1 42. Rb6
click for larger view42...Rb3+ 43. Kc2 Kd6 44. b5 Kc7 45. Rb7+ Kc8 46. Rxg7 
click for larger viewThis is to aim at Black's having passed up attacking/capturing White's kingside pawns. 46...Rxb5 47. Kd3 h5 48. Rh7 Rb2 49. Kxe3 Rxg2 50. Rxh5 Kc7 51. Rh6 
click for larger viewAnd to illustrate White's plan, I'll offer this as, I think, supposedly winnable (Black to move): 
click for larger view<Nickster: I tried other moves instead of <39.b4> but nothing seems to work.> This is me trying 39. c6. |
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| Sep-17-13 | | DanLanglois: which is a 'special pleading' line, as Black plays ...Rd2, like 40...Rd2
click for larger view |
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| Sep-17-13 | | DanLanglois: <31.Kd1 f5 32.Kc2 fxe4 33.Rd5 Rf8 34.c4 Rf2+ 35.Kc3 Kf7 36.Rxa5 Ke6 37.Ra6+ Kf5 38.c5 e3 39.b4> 39...e4 40.c6 Ke6 41. b5 Kd6
<Nickster: Analysis by Houdini 3 Pro w32: depth=29 [..]2. (0.86): 41...Ke5 42.c6 Kd6 43.Re2 Rf5 44.Kc4 Rc5+ 45.Kb4 Re5> ..The draw line.
40. b5 Rd2(Black tries this magic move) 41. Ra1 Rd3+ 42. Kc4 
click for larger viewAnd Brittany Spears sings 'If You Seek Amy'. Which is not to say that I'm quite betting my life that White is won, here. We at least have Black trying to improve on ...Rd2.
40. b5 Black to move
click for larger view<WinKing: I get pretty much the same thing as you <Nickster> after...
<31.Kd1 f5 32.Kc2 fxe4 33.Rd5 Rf8 34.c4 Rf2+ 35.Kc3 Kf7 36.Rxa5 Ke6 37.Ra6+ Kf5 38.c5 e3 39.b4 e4 40.b5 Rf1 41.Ra2>Analysis by Houdini 3 x64: Depth=30/76 10075 kN/s
1. = (0.30): 41...Rb1 42.Kc4 Ke5 43.Rc2 Rd1 44.b6 Rb1 45.g3 g6> So it's supposedly 40...Rf1.
46...g6 47. h4 h5 gives this:
click for larger viewBut 44. c6 gives this:
click for larger viewAnd 44...Rd2 (the 'magic' move) 45. Kc3 Rd5 46. Kb4 if you seek amy:
click for larger viewBlack can try ...Rd2 again, 46...Rd2 47. Rc5+
click for larger viewThe point being, that somesuch position as this wins (Black to move: 
click for larger viewThen, not 44...Rd2, at least. |
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| Sep-17-13 | | DanLanglois: <WinKing: I get pretty much the same thing as you <Nickster> after... <31.Kd1 f5 32.Kc2 fxe4 33.Rd5 Rf8 34.c4 Rf2+ 35.Kc3 Kf7 36.Rxa5 Ke6 37.Ra6+ Kf5 38.c5 e3 39.b4 e4 40.b5 Rf1 41.Ra2> Analysis by Houdini 3 x64: Depth=30/76 10075 kN/s
1. = (0.30): 41...Rb1 42.Kc4 Ke5 43.Rc2 Rd1 44.b6 Rb1 45.g3 g6> 45. h3 g6 46. h4 (note that these moves are kingside pawn moves--what's up?) 
click for larger viewBlack has to be careful, so 45...g5. Because, 46. g3 h5 47. g4 h4
click for larger viewBlack can hold. And, 46. g4 h6. |
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< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 178 OF 182 ·
Later Kibitzing> |
Kibitzing
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post computer analysis or evaluations to the Kibitzer's Corner, or
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