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| Dec-21-13 | | imag: Unfortunately I don't have time for more work. And I probably won't be able to contribute much during the next few days. We'll be OK, just remember that our current main line may score well but is not an easy win: <25....b4 26. Bb2 Na5 27. Ka2 Nb7 28. c6 Nd6 29. Nxd6+ Bxd6 > <30. e4 Bc5 31. R1g2 Rad8 32. h4 h5 33. R6g3 Rd6 34. Kb1 Bb6 35. Rg6 a5> <36.Ba1 Bd4 37.Bxd4 Rxd4 38.f3 Rd6> 
click for larger viewI will post the analysis on my profile page for further reference: User: imag Happy Holidays to everyone :) |
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| Dec-21-13 | | kb2ct: Remember that the pv is probably more important than the evaluation. We certainly have an edge, but not sufficient to compel resignation....yet. He is under pressure and could easily lose quickly. More than likely it will require much more work. :0) |
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| Dec-21-13 | | blue wave: houdini 4 x64B - pv=2
[-0.80] d=32 25...b4 26.Bb2 Rad8 27.Ng3 Bf8 28.e4 Ne7 29.Rg4 g6 30.f4 exf4 31.fxg6+ Nxg6 32.Nh5 Bxc5 33.Rf1 Be7 34.Nxf4 Nxf4 35.Rgxf4 Rg6 36.Bxf6 Rxf6 37.Rxf6+ Bxf6 38.e5 Ke6 39.exf6 a5 40.Kc1 Rf8 41.Rf3 Rxf6 42.Re3+ Kf7 43.Rxd3 Ke6 44.Kc2 Rf5 45.Re3+ Re5 46.Rg3 (4:29:57) 46219298kN [-0.71] d=32 25...Rad8 26.f3 Rd5 27.Bb2 b4 28.Ka2 Bd8 29.Nf2 Rxc5 30.e4 Rc2 31.Rd1 Nd4 32.f4 exf4 33.Nxd3 Nf3 34.Rg4 Rxd2 35.Rxd2 Nxd2 36.Rxf4 c5 37.Bc1 c4 38.Bxd2 cxd3 39.Rf3 Be7 40.Rxd3 g5 41.fxg6+ Rxg6 42.Kb1 Ke6 43.Bf4 Rg1+ 44.Kc2 Re1 45.Re3 Rxe3 46.Bxe3 Ke5 47.Kd3 h5 48.Bd2 a5 49.Bc1 f5 50.exf5 Kxf5 51.Be3 Bd8 52.Bd2 Bb6 53.Kc4 Ke5 (5:32:54) 72082639kN |
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| Dec-21-13 | | dunamisvpm: 25.c5 a5
26.f4 a4
27.fxe5 Nxe5
28. Bxe5 fxe5
29. bxa4 Rxa4
30. f6 Rxe4
31 fxe7 Rb4+ |
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| Dec-21-13 | | dunamisvpm: Voted 25...a5 |
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| Dec-21-13 | | bigpeta66: Deep analysis at 11 iterations by deep rybka 64 sse max after 25.c5 b4 1.b3 e5 2.Bb2 Nc6 3.e3 Nf6 4.Bb5 Bd6 5.g4 a6 6.Bf1 h6 7.h3 Be7 8.Bg2 d5 9.Nc3 Be6 10.Nge2 d4 11.Ne4 Nxe4 12.Bxe4 Bd5 13.Ng3 Bxe4 14.Nxe4 Qd7 15.Qf3 Nb4 16.0–0–0 Nxa2+ 17.Kb1 Nb4 18.Qf5 d3 19.c4 Qxf5 20.gxf5 f6 21.Rhg1 Kf7 22.Bc3 Nc6 23.Rg6 b5 24.Rdg1 Rhg8 25.c5 b4 26.Ba1
..... 26.Bb2
..... (26...Rad8 27.Ka2 (27.R6g4 Rd5 28.Ka2) 27...Rd5 28.f3 -1.15/24) ..... 26. .Na5 .27.Ka2 Nb7 28.c6-1.36/26]
26...Rad8
..... 26...a5 27.Bb2 a4 28.bxa4
..... 26...Na5 27.Ka2 Nb7 28.c6 -1.25/25]
27.Bb2 Na5
..... [27...Rd5 28.Ka2]
28.Ka2 [-1.36/24] |
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| Dec-21-13 | | dunamisvpm: 25. c5 b4
26. Bb2 Na5
27. Ka2 Nb7
28. c6 Na5
29. Ng3 Nc6
30 Nh5 |
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| Dec-21-13 | | falso contacto: We should have a vacation period from now on. |
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| Dec-21-13 | | condition: <Hugin> the sac line has been given by tabanus on previous page! |
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| Dec-21-13 | | zsoydd: . so our opponent has liberated us from the virtual damoclesian dilemma :) voted: 25...b4 with the aim Na5->Nb7->Nd6(after c6) to finally get rid of the strong white knight, the key defender Stockfish 4 experimental: [-1.91] d=57 25...b4 26.Bb2 Na5 27.Ka2 Nb7 28.c6 Nd6 29.Nxd6 |
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| Dec-21-13 | | YouRang: <Nickster: Just got home. <25.c5> as many had predicted. A little disappointed but so be it. The World Team was really on a roll there. I mean we were really working well together. <25.Ka2> would really have been a good challenge. Now it looks like the rest should be straightforwards. But who knows maybe there still some surprises left.> Yeah, I feel that too. It's like this game could have been special, and now it looks like it's winnable just by following the <RV>'s Rybka line. But as you say, we must be diligent in looking for surprising alternatives. |
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| Dec-21-13 | | DcGentle: <imag:
We'll be OK, just remember that our current main line may score well but is not an easy win:
<25....b4 26. Bb2 Na5 27. Ka2 Nb7 28. c6 Nd6 29. Nxd6+ Bxd6 >
<30. e4 Bc5 31. R1g2 Rad8 32. h4 h5 33. R6g3 Rd6 34. Kb1 Bb6 35. Rg6 a5>
<36.Ba1 Bd4 37.Bxd4 Rxd4 38.f3 Rd6>>This is the position reached by this line:
click for larger viewHas anybody tried to reach a win for Black from here? Black can win the c-pawn, but somehow this is not an immediate break-through. Can it be that White will hold?
There are alternative ideas how to win, but is the team able / willing to even consider them or does the dictate of the highest eval at level 32, 33, 34 ply rule again? I remember we had already a situation where this rule was not the best, and this is an understatement. And what if the engine spits out a different move at level 42 ply? I just wonder.
For your information: My engine reached 30 ply after 17 minutes, so you see it's not the fastest. Nevertheless my assessment of <30. Nf5+> in the knight sac line was most likely correct, as <peterfritz> with his fast box confirmed. And just now Houdini 1.5a shows an eval of -1.12, which is not encouraging. And chess-wise? White has not released his pressure on the g-file, and Black have only one rook for operations on the queenside. Black can try a pawn break on a4 and c4, but White can win the g-pawn. This is not a quick win, if at all.
On the <AT>, you can find an alternative for <29... Bxd6>, of course the evals drop first, but later they will rise. Chess-wise there are good arguments for this move, because Black will get the c-file for their rooks. And we could still transpose into the knight sac line, which was declined due to lower evals as well. Of course: <The highest evals rule>! |
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| Dec-21-13 | | kb2ct: < it looks like it's winnable just by following the <RV>'s Rybka line.> Don't count on him following Rybka.
It is necessary to first work out the rook endings first. Most strong players would head for a rook ending. There are a couple of versions.
:0)
1.b3 e5 2.Bb2 Nc6 3.e3 Nf6 4.Bb5 Bd6 5.g4 a6 6.Bf1 h6 7.h3 Be7 8.Bg2 d5 9.Nc3 Be6 10.Nge2 d4 11.Ne4 Nxe4 12.Bxe4 Bd5 13.Ng3 Bxe4 14.Nxe4 Qd7 15.Qf3 Nb4 16.O-O-O Nxa2+ 17.Kb1 Nb4 18.Qf5 d3 19.c4 Qxf5 20.gxf5 f6 21.Rhg1 Kf7 22.Bc3 Nc6 23.Rg6 b5 24.Rdg1 Rhg8 25.c5 b4 26. Bb2 Na5 27. Ka2 Nb7 28. c6 Nd6 29. Nxd6+ Bxd6 30. e4 Bc5 31. R1g2 Rad8 32. h4 h5 33. R6g3 Rd6 34. Kb1 Bb6 35. Rg6 a5 36.Ba1 Bd4 37.Bxd4 Rxd4 38.f3 Rd6
click for larger view |
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Dec-21-13
 | | AylerKupp: <imag> I haven't looked at the moves yet but from this position you gave on p.443
click for larger viewHow is this not an easy win after, say, 39.Kb2, 39.Rg1, or any reasonable White move and 39...Rxc6? Two pawns up and 40...Rc2 to follow. If 39.Rg1 Rxc6 40.Rc1 to contest the c-file then 40...Rxc1 41.Kxc1 c5
click for larger viewBlack's rook is now free from protecting the Pg7 and support the ...c4 advance after ...Rc8. White falls one tempo short in being able to contest the c-file; 42.Kb2 Rc8 43.Rg1 c4 44.Rc1 c3+! 45.dxc3 d2!
click for larger viewNow either the d-pawn queens or after 46.Rd1 bxc3+ 47.Kc2 Black is still 2 pawns up and has connected passed pawns on the 3rd and 2nd rank. Black's king can either get to b4 to protect the Pc3 and open up the a-file for our rook or can open up the k-side with ...g6, ...f5 (after fxg6+, ...Kxg6) and demolish White's k-side. White's king and rook are almost immobilized by the advanced pawns and can't do much to defend. Perhaps not a quick win if GMSW decides to drag it out (which I would doubt), but not a hard one. |
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| Dec-21-13 | | kb2ct: <AylerKupp:>
There are alternatives to your method.
One method os to protect the g-pawn with a rook on our second rank and walk our king queenside setting up a mating net. Engines do not see king walks very well.
:0) |
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| Dec-21-13 | | imag: <AylerKupp: <imag> I haven't looked at the moves yet but from this position you gave on p.443 How is this not an easy win after, say, 39.Kb2, 39.Rg1, or any reasonable White move and 39...Rxc6? Two pawns up and 40...Rc2 to follow.> Because White plays f4 and Rxd3.
I think the best continuation is:
<39.R6g3 Rxc6 40.Rg1 Rc2 41.R1g2> (White's moves look rather silly, but are probably White's best) 
click for larger viewWhat now? f4 is coming. We can't defend d3. I have:
<41...Ke7 42.f4 exf4 43.Rxd3 Rc6 44.Rf3 Kd6 45.Rxf4 Ke5 46.Rf1 Kxe4> 
click for larger viewTwo pawns up but still some work to do. |
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| Dec-21-13 | | g.mueller: Hi <DcGentle: <imag: We'll be OK, just remember that our current main line may score well but is not an easy win: <25....b4 26. Bb2 Na5 27. Ka2 Nb7 28. c6 Nd6 29. Nxd6+ Bxd6 > <30. e4 Bc5 31. R1g2 Rad8 32. h4 h5 33. R6g3 Rd6 34. Kb1 Bb6 35. Rg6 a5> <36.Ba1 Bd4 37.Bxd4 Rxd4 38.f3 Rd6>> This is the position reached by this line:
Has anybody tried to reach a win for Black from here? Black can win the c-pawn, but somehow this is not an immediate break-through.
>
one example:
[Event "?"]
[Site "mueller-PC"]
[Date "2013.12.21"]
[Round "?"]
[White "GMSW"]
[Black "Team"]
[Result "0-1"]
[ECO "A01"]
[PlyCount "138"]
1. b3 e5 2. Bb2 Nc6 3. e3 Nf6 4. Bb5 Bd6 5. g4 a6 6. Bf1 h6 7. h3 Be7 8. Bg2 d5
9. Nc3 Be6 10. Nge2 d4 11. Ne4 Nxe4 12. Bxe4 Bd5 13. Ng3 Bxe4 14. Nxe4 Qd7 15.
Qf3 Nb4 16. O-O-O Nxa2+ 17. Kb1 Nb4 18. Qf5 d3 19. c4 Qxf5 20. gxf5 f6 21. Rhg1
Kf7 22. Bc3 Nc6 23. Rg6 b5 24. Rdg1 Rhg8
25. c5 b4 26. Bb2 Na5 27. Ka2 Nb7 28. c6 Nd6 29. Nxd6+ Bxd6 30. e4 Bc5 31. R1g2 Rad8 32. h4 h5 33. R6g3 Rd6 34. Kb1
Bb6 35. Rg6 a5 36. Ba1 Bd4 37. Bxd4 Rxd4 38. f3 Rd6
39. R6g3 Rxc6 40. Rg1 Rc2 41. R1g2 Rc5 42. Rg1 Rc6 43. R1g2 Rd6 44. Rg1 c5 45. Rc1 Rc6 46. Kb2 Rc7 47.
Ra1 Ra7 48. Rg6 Rc8 49. Rgg1 Ke8 50. Rge1 Ke7 51. Re3 a4 52. Rxd3 a3+ 53. Kc2
Rd7 54. Rxd7+ Kxd7 55. d3 Rg8
click for larger view56. Rg1 Ke7 57. Kb1 Kf7 58. Rg6 Rd8 59. Kc2 Ra8
60. Rg1 Rg8 61. Rg6 a2 62. Kb2 Rd8 63. Kxa2 Rxd3 64. Rg3 Rd2+ 65. Kb1 Rh2 66.
Rg1 Rxh4 67. Kc2 Rh3 68. Rf1 h4 69. Kd3 Rh2
click for larger view |
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| Dec-21-13 | | devere: <imag: My first attempt at the "a5-d6 knight tour" line: <25....b4 26. Bb2 Na5 27. Ka2 Nb7 28. c6 Nd6 29. Nxd6+ Bxd6 > <30. e4 Bc5 31. R1g2 Rad8 32. h4 h5 33. R6g3 Rd6 34. Kb1 Bb6 35. Rg6 a5> [-2.16] d=35 36.R6g3 Rxc6 37.Rf3 >
Why would White play 37.Rf3 instead of Rxd3 ???
Also, the exchange of h4 and h5 seems to slightly favor Black (pawn on h4 is now a potential target for the Black bishop), so White will not play it. |
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| Dec-21-13 | | Lambda: h4 h5 is played so that a white rook can take on d3 without allowing g5, due to the f6 pawn then being overloaded. (g6 would allow that rook to return to the g-file with a pin against the Rg8.) |
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| Dec-21-13 | | g.mueller: GMSW - Team, mueller-PC 2013
click for larger viewAnalysis by Stockfish DD 64 SSE4.2:
70.Rc1 Rf2 71.Rb1 h3 72.Ke3 Rc2 73.Rh1 h2 74.Kd3 Rc3+ 75.Kd2 Rxb3 76.Kc1 c4 77.Rxh2 Rxf3 78.Kc2 Re3 79.Kb2 Re1 80.Rh3 Re2+ 81.Kb1  (-11.82 --) Depth: 45/74 00:13:51 7271MN |
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| Dec-21-13 | | imag: <devere: <imag: My first attempt at the "a5-d6 knight tour" line: <25....b4 26. Bb2 Na5 27. Ka2 Nb7 28. c6 Nd6 29. Nxd6+ Bxd6 > <30. e4 Bc5 31. R1g2 Rad8 32. h4 h5 33. R6g3 Rd6 34. Kb1 Bb6 35. Rg6 a5> [-2.16] d=35 36.R6g3 Rxc6 37.Rf3 >
Why would White play 37.Rf3 instead of Rxd3 ???> Apparently Rxd3 is worse for White than Rf3.
<Also, the exchange of h4 and h5 seems to slightly favor Black (pawn on h4 is now a potential target for the Black bishop), so White will not play it.> Well, Black cannot make progress without exchanging bishops so I'm not convinced h4 will be ever a target for our DSB, but I guess we have to analyze lines without White playing h4 too. |
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| Dec-21-13 | | devere: This might be something resembling best play for both sides after 29...Bxd6 30.e4 Bc5 31.R1g2 Rad8 32.Kb1 a5 33.R6g3 Rd6 34.Ba1 Bb6 35.Bb2 h5 36.h4 Rxc6 37.Rxd3 Rd6 38.Kc2 Rxd3 39.Kxd3 g6 40.fxg6+ Rxg6 41.Rxg6 Kxg6 42.Ke2 Kf7 43.d3 Ke6 
click for larger viewIt seems to me that eventually the exposed pawn on h4 will fall to the Black bishop, and this will decide the game in favor of Black. Or alternatively White could try the rook ending 2 pawns down after the trade of Bishops that has already been discussed (White can force Black into this rook ending by keeping his rook on g6 instead of g3). Either way Black wins. |
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| Dec-21-13 | | peterfritz: Hi!
What about some clearing? (meant as well as for simplifying as for lumbering too :)) 1. b3 e5 2. Bb2 Nc6 3. e3 Nf6 4. Bb5 Bd6 5. g4 a6 6. Bf1 h6 7. h3 Be7 8. Bg2 d5 9. Nc3 Be6 10. Nge2 d4 11. Ne4 Bd5 12. N2g3 Nxe4 13. Bxe4 Bxe4 14. Nxe4 Qd7 15. Qf3 Nb4 16. O-O-O Nxa2+ 17. Kb1 Nb4 18. Qf5 d3 19. c4 Qxf5 20. gxf5 f6 21. Rhg1 Kf7 22. Bc3 Nc6 23. Rg6 b5 24. Rdg1 Rhg8 25. c5 b4 26. Bb2 Na5 27. Ka2 Nb7 28.
c6 Nd6 29. Nxd6+ Bxd6
30. e4 h5 31. Rc1 Rgd8 32. Rcg1 Bf8
33. f4 exf4 34. e5
fxe5 35. Bxe5 Rd5 36. Bxf4 Rxf5 37. Bxc7 Rc8 38. Bb6 Rf6 39. Rxf6+ gxf6 40. c7 Bd6 41. Kb1 f5 42. Rg5 Ke6 43. Rg6+ Kd5 44. Rg7 Kc6 45. Rg6 f4 46. Rf6 Re8 47. Kc1 Kxb6 48. Rxd6+ Kxc7 49. Rf6 Re1+ 50. Kb2 Rf1 51. Rf8 f3 0-1 |
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| Dec-21-13 | | cormier: **********
Analysis by Houdini 3 x64: depth=33 <WinKing> 12/20/13(-0.84) 26.Bb2 Rad8 27.Ka2 Rd5 28.f3 Nd8 29.c6 Rb5 30.f4
(-1.07) 26.Ba1 Na5 27.Ka2 Nb7 28.c6 Nd6 29.Nxd6+ Bxd6
********** |
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| Dec-21-13 | | condition: guys I don't think the above "garbage"- :) is what we want. DCGentle's sac knight line is better non?
so after ..25 b4 if 26.Ka2 why don't we transpose to it ..
there's going to be a fight between
26.. Na5, a5, Rd8 --
can we avoid Na5 and have a better game ???
An open question of taste- would anyone like to discuss this ? |
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