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| Dec-21-13 | | peterfritz: <condition: guys I don't think the above "garbage"- :) is what we want.> Well, then, my dear, just have as much more fun with your game as you can.
:) |
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| Dec-21-13 | | DcGentle: <condition>: Well, I also have a bad feeling with most of the posted lines above, because White has quite some options, and to me it looks as if he needs Black to help in order to make them win. Maybe it's a kind of Zugzwang, but I am not sure about it. If we really want to transpose into the sac line, also there are some options, and the most forcing one has to be found. |
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Dec-21-13
 | | AylerKupp: <imag> You're right, I didn't consider f4 and Rxd3. So maybe ...Rc2 in either of our lines is not the best. So, after 39.R6g3 Rxc6 40.Rg1 (why not 40.f4 immediately?) we go temporarily on the defensive while we regroup: 40...Rd6 41.Rc1 Rd2 and if 42.Rc5, 42...Ra8.
click for larger viewWe have now freed our Rg8 and can further defend our Pc7 if necessary by ...Ra7, and f2-f4 could then be met by ...Rd4. OK, maybe not so easy but being two pawns up I'm reasonably confident that we will find the win. |
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| Dec-21-13 | | whooops: <DcGentle … <imag:
We'll be OK, just remember that our current main line may score well but is not an easy win: <25....b4 26. Bb2 Na5 27. Ka2 Nb7 28. c6 Nd6 29. Nxd6+ Bxd6 30. e4 Bc5 31. R1g2 Rad8 32. h4 h5 33. R6g3 Rd6 34. Kb1 Bb6 35. Rg6 a5 36.Ba1 Bd4 37.Bxd4 Rxd4 38.f3 Rd6>> Has anybody tried to reach a win for Black from here? Black can win the c-pawn, but somehow this is not an immediate break-through.> Well, OTB if I have the advantage I strive for many pawns, few light pieces, no rooks. Here we have ALL our pawns with a +2 advantage at move 39, not bad. Yet, a pawn break is necessary and not trivial. sliding stockfish at 33ply
39. R6g3 Rxc6 40. Rg1 Rc2 41. R1g2 Ke7 (black offered the pawn on g7) 42. f4 (but black does not need to comply. getting d3 is much more valuable than the weak pawn on g7. g7 will stay weak.) exf4 43. Rxd3 Rc6 44. Rf3 Kd6 45. Rxf4 Ke5 46. Kxe4 It is back to 2 pawn advantage and Stockfish evaluates it highly. Yet, the main problem of a pawn break is unsolved and the 2 white Rs are as mobile as the black. - A strategic plan is needed, and Stockfish has not got it. |
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| Dec-21-13 | | devere: <condition: guys I don't think the above "garbage"- :) is what we want. DCGentle's sac knight line is better non?> What sac line are you proposing, and how do you force a transposition into it? |
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| Dec-21-13 | | condition: <peterfritz> lol you know I mean garbage in the aesthetic sense :)
<DcGentle> Mate you're one of the few that "understands" chess -- I think we can do better than spending the next 3,4,5,6 moves chasing 1 small c-pawn- it gives him time to counter- and perhaps draw -- look at it this way, we've already played this way once, taking his a-pawn- lets not do it again," once bitten, twice shy"
I much prefer your positional approach, like lets get a rook on the c-file (Rc2) , these are his weak points -- to keep it simple we want a rook on d5 , so Rd8-Rd5 , leave the a pawn alone, leave our knight alone -- is it good to think like this ???
we also want a pretty win, ( aesthetic ) |
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Dec-21-13
 | | chrisowen: <25...b4> for g8 establish a new bond in creative gestures at c3 ide line up ride one banter ok in balance b8 for now hess adding to the scales electric hang it rist in mob to bishop ie jugular in sign belook free a5 at some stage see koinus agreed caddy in b8 looks tender a bit hook in gain stride a nibbled d8 or chest band him b8 ar caught in covenant see grace a classic b8 um inceed 3g ha bargain for heading up ply it fish in a2 glesson g8 back rook as pair in flinch b8 or b4 ok in a foilable to deem in a tour a maze brave in bowing line a5 could come later riff am e4 common goal in f3 to chase away d3 for aim in crappy it honour in hope a5 gain might in rich b5 fed c4 or postulated rook over d8 hone d5 in time c5 get ignoble going g5 the cracks appear so b8 and hedge pick soldier mine c5 am proving bold calm c6 reposition as carry in b8 shin soluable give g1 a chance piece out of commission shrug off b4 howl at he c6 off to engage b8 all likelyhood in b4 a rage assualter minimal one in together bind as boot pawn can be let go ok line on in b8 energyrates a spin sycamore at c3 re establish in band b5 a king knows what in b2 damage off re you have heffa g6 a lump again b8 or drill in d8 when eg f8 rack in accolade instigate rook calms c3 a robbed jingle a mind in b2 ears to the ground e7 rig as d8 accumulated on key f5 ellucidate rook as pin d5 tail king stale aid in a2 bit down as to verificate a mint leaf affable duck yin and yang b8 lesson slide a nip in the bud b4 allows in black to fulfill f8 I'de indicate a minstel is hook in equality rabble anchor deems a g6 sail bad band a mock up c3 clean to whistle ar go cast off d8 see a bet rook in wheels around I guess righhtcall b5 tenant it zest a b2 mixed up b4 one up ride on a2 when glide am b8 at some stage in head lights it a nook in delivery line c5 rick etc sure ignoble at in b5 choose a wave in b4 lieu of rights again I b2 led in jangle yes c4 free c6 lip over time |
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| Dec-21-13 | | condition: <devere> I'll refer you to <Dcgentle> there, on how to tanspose to it, basically I think we avoid Na5, and get the rook active- positional approach |
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| Dec-21-13 | | condition: I've just realised my thinking has converted with <Tabanus> , quite by accident -- very pleasing, re-read his last few posts, he's wanting a transposition also -- bye fer now |
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| Dec-21-13 | | stunningmove: <DcG> please repost the sac line you and <condition> refer to. Those of us who haven't been able to follow on a daily basis don't know this line. |
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| Dec-21-13 | | condition: <Tabanus: <Hugin> Here's the original knight sac line:
25.Ka2 b4 26.Bb2 a5 27.c5 Rae8 28.R6g4 Rd8 29.Ng3 Rd5 30.Ne4 Nb8 31.c6 h5 32.Rg6 Na6 33.f3 Nc5 34.Ng3 Rh8 35.e4 Rd6 36.Nf1 Rg8 37.Ne3 Rxc6 38.Bxe5 a4 39.bxa4 Nxa4 40.Kb3 Nc3 41.dxc3 bxc3 42.Nc4 c2 43.Bf4 Bc5 0-1> |
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| Dec-21-13 | | Hugin: <DcGentle: <imag:
We'll be OK, just remember that our current main line may score well but is not an easy win: <25....b4 26. Bb2 Na5 27. Ka2 Nb7 28. c6 Nd6 29. Nxd6+ Bxd6 > <30. e4 Bc5 31. R1g2 Rad8 32. h4 h5 33. R6g3 Rd6 34. Kb1 Bb6 35. Rg6 a5> <36.Ba1 Bd4 37.Bxd4 Rxd4 38.f3 Rd6>>
This is the position reached by this line:
Has anybody tried to reach a win for Black from here? Black can win the c-pawn, but somehow this is not an immediate break-through.> Hugin:
Dec-16-13
S Williams vs The World, 2013
Here is one line b4 26.Bb2 Na5 27.Ka2 Nb7 28.c6 Nd6 29.Nxd6+ Bxd6 30.e4 Bc5
31.R1g2 Rad8 32.h4 h5 33.R6g3 Rd6 34.Rg6 Bd4 35.R6g3 Bb6 36.Kb1 Rxc6 37.Rxd3 Rd6 38.Kc2 Rxd3 39.Kxd3 g6 40.fxg6+ Rxg6 41.Rxg6 Kxg6 42.Ke2 a5 43.d3 Kf7 44.Bc1 Bd4 45.Bh6 Ke7 46.f3 Kd6 47.Bg7 Ke6 48.Bh6 Ke7 49.Bg7 Bg1 50.Bh6 Bh2 51.Be3 Bg3 52.Bc5+ Ke6 53.f4 exf4 54.Kf3 Bxh4 55.Kxf4 Bg5+ 56.Kf3 f5 57.Bd4 h4 58.Bb2 fxe4+ 59.Kxe4 h3 60.Kf3 Bf4 61.Bd4 Kd5 62.Bb2 Bd6 63.Kf2 Be5 64.Bc1 Kc5 65.Kg1 a4 66.bxa4 b3 67.a5 Kb5 68.Kf2 Kxa5 69.Ba3 Ka4 0-1 |
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| Dec-21-13 | | YouRang: IMO, it's not too soon to explore various strategies, but it is too early to campaigning for any of them. |
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| Dec-21-13 | | peterfritz: <devere
What sac line are you proposing, and how do you force a transposition into it?> :)
As for those of the analysts, who are interested not only in fun but in a short win too maybe: I can take back the following output from my garbage- variant above with Stockfish_PA_GTB DD on 12 cores, 8Gb hash and it's persistent hash, which in the meantime has grown up to over 10 Mb, to move nr. 29:1. b3 e5 2. Bb2 Nc6 3. e3 Nf6 4. Bb5 Bd6 5. g4 a6 6. Bf1 h6 7. h3 Be7 8. Bg2 d5 9. Nc3 Be6 10. Nge2 d4 11. Ne4 Bd5 12. N2g3 Nxe4 13. Bxe4 Bxe4 14. Nxe4 Qd7 15. Qf3 Nb4 16. O-O-O Nxa2+ 17. Kb1 Nb4 18. Qf5 d3 19. c4 Qxf5 20. gxf5 f6 21. Rhg1 Kf7 22. Bc3 Nc6 23. Rg6 b5 24. Rdg1 Rhg8 25. c5 b4 26. Bb2 Na5 27. Ka2 Nb7 28. c6 Nd6 29. Nxd6+ Bxd6 
click for larger viewAnalysis by Stockfish PA_GTB DD 64 SSE4.2P27:
30.e4 h5 31.Tc1 Le7 32.Tcg1 Lc5 33.Tf1 Tad8 34.f4 exf4 35.Txf4 Le3 36.dxe3 d2 37.Tg1 d1D 38.Txd1 Txd1 39.e5 fxe5 40.Lxe5 Te1 (-1.86 --) Tiefe: 43/52 00:02:43 2247MN, tb=3 Pity, the variant in the output isn't following mine (:)), but whoever has ever tried to make an engine keep more then 10 moves in hash, which are no engine- moves, knows the reasons why.
To understand that fully, look at the output just 3 moves further on, after 30.e4 h5 31.Rc1 Rgd8 32.Rcg1 
click for larger viewAnalysis by Stockfish PA_GTB DD 64 SSE4.2P27:
32...Lf8 33.h4 Td6 34.Tc1 a5 35.Tg3 Ta6 36.Kb1 a4 37.bxa4 Txa4 38.Tc4 Ta8 39.Txb4 Txc6 40.Tb7 Td8 41.Tg1 Tc8 42.Tg3 Tc4 43.Txd3 Txe4 44.Td7+ Ke8 45.Tbxc7 Txc7 46.Txc7 Txh4 47.Kc2 Th3
 (-2.12) Tiefe: 44/56 00:03:09 2201MN, tb=18 Can anyone show any variant with this eval at move 29? Remember, we are at move 25 now, so you all have 4 moves to get an eval over -1.85 with any variant and backward solving, any hard- and software except such with tuned eval-parameters. :) Wish you all a merry Christmas, will be back not before next year and really hope, you don't tamper this thing in the meantime, which we should have in Santa's bag already, shouldn't we? Just ask your engines, please! :) |
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| Dec-21-13 | | condition: < YouRang: IMO, it's not too soon to explore various strategies, but it is too early to campaigning for any of them. > you might be right, however we're almost upon that place
as next moves are forced ,
we have to decide what is our 26th move?
Rd8, Na5, a5 and that mon ami is strategical !
If the vote was tonite, I'd say we'd have a close 3-way split so lets get it sorted before the vote, that's all I'm saying :) |
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Dec-21-13
| | AylerKupp: <Summary of White's choices after 25...b4 26.Bb2 Na5 27.Ka2 Nb7>
click for larger viewI know that 28.c6 Nd6 29.Nxd6 Bxd6 seems to be the main line but White has 2 other reasonable alternatives, 28.Rc1 and (throwing caution to the winds) 28.Ng3. So here is a summary of 6 engines' evaluations. As previously indicated, <St.Avg> (Straight Average) is the arithmetic mean of the engines' evaluations and <Adj.Avg> (Adjusted Average) is the average evaluation adjusted according to each engine's current rating, useful since the lowest rated engine (Spike 1.4, 3035) is significantly lower rated than the next lowest rated engine (Gull 2.3, 3145) <and> it tends to calculate higher evaluations than most engines. So Spike's evaluations are weighted less than those of the other engines. Still, not really all that significant of a difference. White's Bouquet Critter Gull IvanHoe Komodo Spike
Move d=32 d=30 d=27 d=29 d=33 d=37 <St.Avg> <Adj.Avg> 28.c6 [-1.26] [-1.03] [-1.10] [-1.15] [-1.14] [-1.52] <[-1.20]> <[-1.15]> 28.Rc1 [-1.35] [-1.33] [-1.20] [-1.31] [-1.28] [-1.84] <[-1.39]> <[-1.32]> 28.Ng3 [-1.41] [-1.49] [-1.16] [-1.41] [------] [-2.17] <[-1.53]> <[-1.42]> 28.h4 [------] [------] [------] [------] [-1.31] [------] <[-1.31]> <[-1.31]> And here is a summary of how the 6 engines ranked the moves, without regard for the value of the evaluation: White's Bouquet Critter Gull IvanHoe Komodo Spike
Move d=32 d=30 d=27 d=29 d=33 d=37 <Avg> 28.c6 1 1 1 1 1 1 <1.0> 28.Rc1 2 2 3 2 2 2 <2.2> 28.Ng3 3 3 2 3 4 3 <3.0> 28.h4 4 4 4 4 3 4 <3.8> I am pleased about 4 things:
(1) 28.c6 does indeed seem to be the strongest White move as other engines have already indicated, and this is the move for which we have the most analysis and are best prepared for. And if this is the best White has, then our prospects look bright because the Pc6 will be weak and we may soon have a 2-pawn advantage. (2) Across the board all engines evaluate the position after 28.c6 or any other move to be better than [-1.00] which means that besides our pawn advantage the engines assess that we have additional positional compensation. (3) It looks like our position is steadily improving, at least as far as the engines are concerned. Wheather this improvement is real and long lasting is something that we need to decide by sliding forward. (4) The line with 28.Ng3 does not seem to lead to much for White, other than possibly an earlier defeat :-) I was concerned that without our knight being able to quickly challenge White's Rg6 or defend our Pe5 that White might be able to break through on the k-side. That does not appear to be the case. Whew! I'll post the details after I've had a chance to go over the lines and, to satisfy my curiosity, I'll go over at least some of the 28.Ng3 lines first. I'm feeling cautiously optimistic at the moment for our chances, even though we probably still have a ways to go and possibly a long game ahead. |
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| Dec-21-13 | | IECGdoc: I only would like to repeat that
25.- b4 26.Ba1?! a5 27.Bb2 a4
28.bxa4 Rxa4 29.f4 exf4 30.exf4 Raa8
31.Be5
seems to be draw.
Therefore, if we will see the "desperate trap" 26.Ba1, then I recommend to avoid 26.-a5 and look at 26.-Na5 or 26.-Rad8 instead. Regards
Peter |
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| Dec-21-13 | | kb2ct: < IECGdoc:>
No reason to create a passer as soon as possible.
Plenty of other goals to be accomplished first.
My endgame library is huge and since this is an open book test, I likely will be able to explain the theory of whatever ending he chooses. :0) |
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| Dec-21-13 | | cormier: kb2ct ... i gave all my books an personal openings, middle game and ending away .... i only rely on memory and have keap the engines |
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Dec-21-13
 | | Domdaniel: <cormier> -- <... i gave all my books an personal openings, middle game and ending away .... i only rely on memory >
Are you a Saint, mon ami? |
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| Dec-21-13 | | Boomie: ->
Looking at the AT, we find a curious tendency of many lines rating the same. For example, 25....b4 26. Bb2 Na5 27. Ka2 Nb7 28. c6 Nd6 29. Nxd6+ Bxd6 30. e4 Bc5 31. R1g2, which is a main line (http://www.jepflast.com/chesstree/w...). <YouRang's> comment is telling: <<YouRang> 12/20 Houdini_4_x64B @ 34 ply:-1.15 31...Rad8 32.h4 h5 33.Ka1 a5 34.Ka2 Rd6 35.Kb1
-1.15 31...h5 32.Kb1 Rad8 33.R6g3 Rd6 34.h4 Ba7 35.Rf3 -1.15 31...a5 32.Kb1 h5 33.Ka2 Rad8 34.h4 Rd6 35.Kb1
-1.15 31...Bb6 32.R6g4 h5 33.R4g3 Rad8 34.Kb1 Ba7 35.h4 -1.15 31...Ba7 32.Kb1 h5 33.R6g3 Rad8 34.h4 a5 35.Ka2 -1.15 31...Rae8 32.h4 h5 33.Kb1 Rd8 34.Ka1 a5 35.Ka2
-1.15 31...Rac8 32.h4 h5 33.Kb1 Rcd8 34.Ka1 a5 35.Ka2 -1.15 31...Rab8 32.h4 h5 33.R6g3 Rbd8 34.Rg6 Rde8 35.Kb1 That should help narrow down our choices.>
It doesn't seem to matter to Houdini where the a-rook goes. Stockfish DD has a similar result here. I'm not sure what this means aside from the need for a lot of work to separate the value of the lines. |
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| Dec-21-13 | | Tiggler: <Domdaniel: <cormier> -- <... i gave all my books an personal openings, middle game and ending away .... i only rely on memory > Are you a Saint, mon ami?> Those books are his relics, waiting to be revealed. |
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| Dec-21-13 | | DcGentle: <Boomie>: If many lines show the same eval, it means that the maneuvers represented by these lines have all reached similar positions after a certain number of moves, meaning that no maneuver was nore successful than another. Reasons: Blockade or Inability to find a tactical break-through. The engine could not find any progress either, so it's kind of alarming. But this could change, if you help the engine or let it run deeper. But the best method of all is the human understanding of a position, and this is all too often missing. Here the key to understand the position in my opinion is understanding <peterfritz>' shortest line, and I guess I am on to something. Why could our d-pawn, the weakling, queen? Nice question, isn't it. |
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| Dec-21-13 | | Nothotsuga: <<imag: <AylerKupp: <imag> I haven't looked at the moves yet but from this position you gave on p.443
How is this not an easy win after, say, 39.Kb2, 39.Rg1, or any reasonable White move and 39...Rxc6? Two pawns up and 40...Rc2 to follow.>
Because White plays f4 and Rxd3.
I think the best continuation is:
<39.R6g3 Rxc6 40.Rg1 Rc2 41.R1g2> (White's moves look rather silly, but are probably White's best)What now? f4 is coming. We can't defend d3. I have:
<41...Ke7 42.f4 exf4 43.Rxd3 Rc6 44.Rf3 Kd6 45.Rxf4 Ke5 46.Rf1 Kxe4>> Can someone analyse : 41...c5 42. f4 c4 ? Thanks! |
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| Dec-21-13 | | condition: < DcGentle> hmm so you think peter fritz "garbage line" could well be the winning line ?
I hope so too , I really do :) |
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