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The Chessgames.com Challenge
Dancing Rook
THE WORLD WINS
The World vs Arkadij Naiditsch
C U R R E N T   P O S I T I O N

  
   Chessgames Challenge
Can a group of chess amateurs team up to beat a grandmaster?  Find out in the Chessgames Challenge!  You can vote for the move you think is best, and discuss the game with other members on this page.

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[flip board] GAME OVER: 1-0 [flip board]

MOVES:
1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 Nf6 4.d3 Bc5 5.c3 O-O 6.O-O d6 7.Nbd2 Ne7 8.d4 exd4 9.cxd4 Bb6 10.Re1 Bg4 11.h3 Bh5 12.a3 Bg6 13.Ba4 d5 14.e5 Ne4 15.Nxe4 dxe4 16.Nh4 Qxd4 17.Qxd4 Bxd4 18.Bg5 Nc6 19.Nxg6 fxg6 20.Rxe4 Bxf2+ 21.Kh2 Rf5 22.Bd2 Rd8 23.Bb4 Nxb4 24.axb4 c6 25.e6 Rb8 26.Rd1 Kf8 27.g4 Rf6 28.g5 Rf5 29.Rd7 b5 30.Bd1 Bb6 31.Bg4 Rf2+ 32.Kg3 Rf1 33.h4 Rg1+ 34.Kh2 Rf1 35.h5 Ke8 36.Rxg7 1-0
GAME OVER thank you for playingit is now 02:55:15
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Kibitzer's Corner
< Earlier Kibitzing  · PAGE 700 OF 707 ·  Later Kibitzing>
Jan-12-15
Premium Chessgames Member
  AylerKupp: <<kwid> Is SF's rating not 200 ELO higher than Rbka?>

Not quite. In the latest (Jan-03-15) CCRL 40/40 tournament list Stockfish 5 65-bit, 4 CPU is rated at 3284, 123 points higher than Rybka 4 64-bit, 4 CPU, rated at 3161. Perhaps more pertinent, in the latest (Jan-04-2015) CEGT 40/120 tournament list Stockfish is rated at 3094, 157 points higher than Rybka, rated at 2957.

As far as what chance Rybka has against Stockfish, the Elo P(Win) for a 123 point differential is 0.67 and for a 157 point differential it's 0.71. But these are probabilities, in one game anything can happen.

Jan-12-15
Premium Chessgames Member
  AylerKupp: <team kids can win> Perhaps Joop van Oosterom would be willing to give us a game. He was twice World Correspondence champion (2003-2005 and 2005-2008) and employs Dutch retired GM Jeroen Piket as his "personal assistant". He is also a billionaire and, if so inclined, could afford to purchase and use as many computers and chess engines (and the staff to operate them) as he feels necessary. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joop_v...)

Then again maybe Arno Nickel is game for a rematch. His current correspondence rating is 2632 (his rating at the time of our last game in 2008 was 2614) and he is currently ranked #13 in the world in correspondence chess.

Jan-12-15  John Mulder: <kwid> <Is SF's rating not 200 ELO higher than Rbka? If so what chances will RV have against only some of our members with fast CBU's running SF and or KM on auto pilot?>

Maybe I'm wrong, but if you start running chess engines for 24 hours, 48 hours or even 72 hours per move then I'm not sure we have a lot of data to make comparisons. Most chess engine comparisons that have been made are on short or tight time controls.

Rybka 4.1 at 72 hours per move would be a formidable opponent.

Jan-12-15  kwid: <John Mulder:> <kwid> <Is SF's rating not 200 ELO higher than Rbka? If so what chances will RV have against only some of our members with fast CBU's running SF and or KM on auto pilot?> <Maybe I'm wrong, but if you start running chess engines for 24 hours, 48 hours or even 72 hours per move then I'm not sure we have a lot of data to make comparisons. Most chess engine comparisons that have been made are on short or tight time controls.

Rybka 4.1 at 72 hours per move would be a formidable opponent.>

No I think you are not wrong about the ability of Rybka and his human positions assessments.

But in a contest against us his success will largely depend on book data's then brute engines evaluations from R4.1.

He would need also a lot of computer time and personal effort for keeping up with the latest finds of theoretical novelties once he is out of book.

His playing repertoire may be of insufficient quality to compete against our unrevealed opening lines historical rated at super GM playing strength.

Thus if he keeps R4.1 he would have to out book us from the start and hope to stay within his prepared engine book lines until Rybka can take over.

Therefore the first 10 moves or so will be a battle between theoretical findings and less of engine valuations capabilities.

Jan-12-15
Premium Chessgames Member
  AylerKupp: <<John Mulder> Rybka 4.1 at 72 hours per move would be a formidable opponent.>

Probably not nearly as much as you might think. Remember that the number of possible moves increases geometrically, and so does the time to advance one more ply. Everything depends on the capabilities of the hardware but if Rybka <in middlegame positions> can get to d=20 in 30 minutes, at the end of one hour it will probably only get to d=23 or so. And after 24 hours it would probably only get to d=28, after 48 hours it would probably only get to d=31 and at the end of 72 hours it would probably only get to d=33 or so. So the difference in search depth between 1 and 72 hours is probably only 5 plies or so.

These are just rough and likely pessimistic guesses on my part. <RandomVisitor> can of course come up with much more accurate numbers, particularly since he has occasionally run analyses for days.

Of course other engines would be laboring under similar constraints, but in <middlegame positions> it takes Rybka longer to reach a given search depth than it takes other engines. I say <middlegame> positions because in endgames, because of the reduced number of pieces, Rybka can get to depth in a similar amount of time as other engines, with the exception of Stockfish.

These observations (guesses?!) are for "fire and forget" mode; turn the engine on, walk away, and come back in 24, 48, or 72 hours. Since the objective of searching to deeper depths is mostly to extend the horizon effect area, it's been shown that this can be accomplished with forward sliding much more effectively. So it depends whether we want to have one opponent operate in "fire and forget" mode and the other opponent inject human guidance.

Jan-13-15  Tiggler: <AylerKupp> I agree with your observations about engine search depth.

Regarding forward sliding, it can be thought of as the ultimate hard pruning, since it eliminates entirely the lines not followed. It ought, therefore, be followed by backward sliding, which finds the lines not considered on the forward path. Engines don't do this, though they could, as <lambda>'s programmed searches prove.

Jan-14-15  cro777: In his CC Chronicles, Bo Bredenhof recently remarked about openings in correspondence chess:

"Opening choice and preparation in OTB chess are important. The goal is to reach a known position that offers adequate chances, and, if lucky, the opponent goes astray somewhere. It also saves important reflection time. In CC opening choice is even more important. There are many openings that are suitable for OTB play, but are not strong enough in CC.

In CC it is very hard to win a game (our computer engine assistants are very strong). Hence, it is of the utmost importance to not lose a game. If you lose one game, you may have to play another five or ten games to achieve a win that compensates for the loss."

At the ongoing 28th World Championship Final, out of 108 finished games 98 ended in a draw..

https://www.iccf.com/event?id=37632

In our next game, playing for a win with the black pieces against a strong correspondence player would be a real challenge.

Jan-14-15
Premium Chessgames Member
  chancho: Did Mister Naiditsch ever come in here and say anything?

If not, that would make him (as far as I know) the first to brush the World Team off like that.

( I do not care if he mentioned it on his blog or whatever)

The others at least had the courtesy to comment about the game here.

Jan-14-15  cormier: we only got this ... <Dec-29-14 chessgames.com: I exchanged emails with Arkadij and wants me to let you know that he congratulates the World Team on their success. He will likely have quite a bit to say about this game (if not here, in his newsletter) however at this moment he's involved in a very tough schedule at the Zurich Open.>
Jan-15-15  zsoydd: just found a large reservoir of potential challengers:

http://www.chess-server.net/uploads...

many of the participating players are fresh, ambitious and still undefeated (not only in that contest)

don't be misled by the seemingly low ratings, better look at the last 2-years performance of the players (which is quite good for most of the successful players in that contest)

Jan-15-15  get Reti: <chanco> and <cormier>, he did send one message himself previously on the forum, about a paragraph long, congratulating us on the clear win by exploiting his c6 mistake. It's a couple of pages back. He didn't say much more than that.
Jan-15-15  cormier: Dec-31-14

<<Arkadij Naiditsch:> Congrats to the "World Team" for the nice clear win using my huge mistake 24...c6? and of course wish You all to have a great start into the 2015!>

Jan-15-15  RookFile: I think he's a class act. You notice he didn't make any excuses.
Jan-15-15  yskid: <Jan-15-15 zsoydd: just found a large reservoir of potential challengers:

http://www.chess-server.net/uploads...

many .....>Just found this game there

[Event "BdF-Remote"]
[Site "ICCF"]
[Date "2013.2.10"]
[Round "-"]
[White "Mirbach, Thomas"]
[Black "Müller, Achim (Rheine)"]
[Result "1-0"]
[WhiteElo "2283"]
[BlackElo "2194"]
[Board "15"]
[WhiteTeam "BdF-Server"]
[BlackTeam "Remote"]

1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 Nf6 4.O-O Nxe4 5.d4 Nd6
6.Bxc6 dxc6 7.dxe5 Nf5 8.Qxd8+ Kxd8 9.Rd1+ Ke8 10.Nc3 Ne7 11.h3 Ng6 12.b3 Be7 13.Ne2 a5 14.a4 h6 15.Bb2 Kf8
16.Ne1 Kg8 17.Nd3 Kh7 18.f4 h5 19.Rf1 Nh4 20.Ng3 Bf5 21.Rad1 Rad8 22.Nxh5 Be4 23.g4 Bg2 24.f5 Bxh3 25.f6 Bxf1 26.fxe7 Rxd3 27.Rxf1 Rf3 28.e6 f6 29.g5 Rg8 30.Rd1 Nf5 31.Rd7 Nd6 32.e8=Q Nxe8 33.gxf6 1-0

Jan-16-15  zsoydd: @<yskid>:

the attributes I mentioned tend to apply primarily to the top players on the first few boards

Jan-16-15  yskid: <Jan-16-15 zsoydd: @<yskid>:

the attributes I mentioned tend to apply primarily to the top players on the first few boards>I rapidly glanced yesterday quite a few BdF Schachserver decided and few drawn games (Dieter Kraft had most of those). Found some almost "exotic" improvisations. After 1.d4 Whites seem mostly avoiding Nimtzo- and diverting with Nf3. 1.Nf3...2.c4 seems frequent. There are also quite a few classic closed (one drawn Marshall) Spanisch (Ruy Lopez)and Sizillian but not much else after 1.e4 (I found one Evans Gambit declined and won by White). Nevertheless, similarly to the ICCF World Championships finals games, wins seem mostly for white side. Does it mean that "first move advantage" may be, currently, considered significant amongst correspondence players? Or, it may be an opportunity to find some Black's opening unexplored surprise sequence.

Jan-16-15  cormier: tear down this wall ... Carlsen vs Anand, 2014
Jan-17-15
Premium Chessgames Member
  mistermac: <<AylerKupp>: <mistermac> Your main point (and I don't mean this facetiously at all) is that for you and the "low infos" the amount of analysis produced is voluminous, and that you at least, have long ago given up trying to go over it with a coarse toothcomb. So my question to you, from one of those probably guilty of voluminous analysis, is: How can we make this voluminous analysis more comprehensible?>

Sorry for taking so long to reply to you very valid question.

An answer is not easy to give, simply because your question is valid.

My attempted answer is this:

The final moves in any line are the easiest to explain, especially if the very last move is mate.

The hardest move to explain is the very first one, except where that move forces a reply, in which case it is the second move which becomes the hardest to explain.

And so ad infinitum, or mate, whichever happens first.

Jan-17-15
Premium Chessgames Member
  mistermac: Sorry, <AK>, I left out two other options, stalemate, or a clearly demonstrable perpetual repetition.
Jan-17-15  Arno Nickel: Congrats, you unbeatable guys :)
If you remember me and like to read some more stuff from me, please take a look here: Arno Nickel (Latest entry)
Cheers, Arno
Jan-18-15  peterfritz: <Arno Nickel>
Hi Arno!
Of course most of us remember you well as the world's greatest corr.- player. The game Nickel-World became already 7 years old soon in the meantime, one of only a few ones this team didn't win. What about a revenge?

:)

Best regards
Peter.

Jan-19-15  cormier: M Vachier-Lagrave vs A Giri, 2015
Jan-19-15  chesstoplay: From The Caissars Forum...

< < 12. BEST (WORST) PUN OF THE YEAR >

And the winner is ... <Suffering from c6-ness> >

Carolyn Wells, an author and poet who died in 1942, said,

"A blunder at the right moment

is better than cleverness at the wrong time."

From Phillip Adler's Bridge column today.

:)

Jan-19-15
Premium Chessgames Member
  Willber G: Yay, my pun won an award!
Jan-19-15
Premium Chessgames Member
  AylerKupp: <<mistermac> Sorry for taking so long to reply to you very valid question. An answer is not easy to give, simply because your question is valid.>

At least now I know why most of my questions are answered quickly! :-)

I guess that, given that several of us (or at least I) have a tendency to generate voluminous analyses (and some of us even find them useful), what I was hoping to find out was whether there was a way that the analyses could be presented in a form that would make them more easily comprehensible and approachable by those who have neither the time nor the inclination to review them in detail. You seem to indicate that you favor an explanation of the various moves in a line. But, in addition to taking more time and effort, if we were to attempt to explain or second-guess the computer about the moves, or even just selected moves, that would make the already voluminous analyses even more voluminous. And, of course, the quality of the explanations would be highly dependent on the skill and strength of the analyst. In my case any explanation would probably be or should be suspect until independently verified, and would require additional computer analysis of any suggested deviations from the original line.

Or, for example, would you prefer to see only the engine's top line listed and explained? I typically let the engine display its top 3 moves to see if there is one move that is clearly considered better by the engine than others and therefore the most likely to be played and the move where we should concentrate our efforts in analyzing further. Or whether there are 2 or 3 moves that are considered approximately equal and therefore we need to investigage them all. So perhaps I should be selective and in the first case only list the top line and in the second case list all the lines are evaluated approximately equal. That should reduce some of the clutter and "voluminosity". Yes, that's a word; I looked it up.

Since I typically run analyzes of a specific position using multiple engines, I try to summarize the results of the analyses in the main page and list the details in either the analysis forum or the analysis tree, or both, and provide a link to the details. If you have looked at any of these summaries, have they been of any use to you? I will always generate them for my own use since I find them useful, but I don't need to post them if nobody looks at them. That would reduce the voluminosity even more.

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