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Nov-19-17
 | | Chessgames Challenge: 
9.c3
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| Nov-19-17 | | diceman: <AylerKupp: <kwid> After the expected 9.c3 not only do we have the option to preserve the bishop with 9...Ba5 but also with 9...Bc4. And we not only have the choice to counterattack with 9...h6 but also with 9...Qg6.> I've looked at this:
click for larger view10. d4 Ba5 (10...h6 is also possible)
11. f4 Bb6
12. Kh1 h6
13. fxe5 hxg5
14. exf6+ gxf6
15. Qf3 g4
16. Qg3 d6
click for larger view Hopefully after Bd7 and rooks to the h-file
we can drum up some kingside counterplay. |
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| Nov-19-17 | | kwid: I voted for h6 hoping to see
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and with Ba5 now we could see
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| Nov-19-17 | | kwid: <diceman:> In your line white has a4/a5 etc not f4
click for larger view as I have pointed out previously but we do have d6 instead of Bb6 in this line.
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where we may well see f4 played. |
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| Nov-19-17 | | kwid: Since we have no h6 voters but me I have to emphasis that moving our bishop twice just gives the game away. I am not implying that we could win against a sound move order which we should expect with RV's lines as a guidance. But with h6! and not Ba5? or Bc5? we will have a fighting chance to survive and deny white for being credited to come up with the Traxler refutation line. |
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Nov-19-17
 | | Honza Cervenka: <1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6 4.Ng5 Bc5 5.Bxf7+ Ke7 6.Bc4 Rf8 7.O-O Qe8 8.b4 Bxb4 9.c3 Ba5 10.d4 d6 11.f4 Bb6 12.Kh1 exd4 13.e5 Ng4 14.Qe1>
click for larger viewIn this position we are not obliged to play 14...Kd8, which can be followed by 15.Qh4 as <kwid> has pointed out. I think that we can play 14...h6 instead of it. 15.exd6++ Kd8 seems to be no problem for black, for example 16.Ne6+ Bxe6 17.Bxe6 Ne3 18.Bxe3 Qxe6 19.cxd4 Bxd4 20.dxc7+ Kxc7 21.Nc3 Bxe3 22.Rf3 Rae8 23.Rxe3 Qg6 (of course, not 23...Qxe3?? 24.Nd5+) and the game looks quite equal. But the main point of 14...h6 comes after 15.Qh4!?, which can be countered by 15...Ncxe5! 
click for larger viewDiscovered checks like 16.Nf7+ or 16.Nh7+ are running into 16...g5, where complications seem to be in black's favour as far as I can see (for example, 16.Nf7+ g5 17.fxg5 Be6 18.Bxe6 Kxe6 19.g6 Kd7 20.Bxh6 Nxh6 21.Qxh6 Ng4 22.Qf4 Ne3 etc.), and 16.fxe5 Rxf1+ 17.Bxf1 hxg5 18.Bxg5+ Kf7 gives white hardly anything better than perpetual check after 19.Qh5+ Kf8 20.Qh8+ Kf7 21.Qh5+ etc., or 19.Bc4+ Be6 20.Nd2 Nxe5 21.Qh7 Bxc4 22.Nxc4 dxc3 23.Rf1+ Ke6 24.Qh3+ Kd5 25.Qxc3 Qc6 26.Rd1+ Ke6 27.Qh3+ Kf7 28.Rf1+ Kg8 29.Nxe5 dxe5 30.Qb3+ Kh7 31.Qh3+ Kg8 etc. |
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| Nov-19-17 | | centralfiles: voted ...h6 |
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Nov-19-17
 | | AylerKupp: <<kwid> [after 9...Ba5 10.d4 B6] But white has better for move 11. with our bishop on b6 we will see a4 a6,a5 Ba7,Nbd2 Kd8,Qb3 idea Nf7/Ba3 and not 10.f4> Sorry about that. I was at a concert waiting for it to start and, hurrying to finish my post before I had to shut down my phone, I repeated 10...Bb6. So, if 11.f4, with our bishop already on b6 (would it be fair to say that you've saved us a tempo? ;-) ) I would try 11...Nxe4.
click for larger viewNow if:
(a) 12.Nxe4 Qxe4 13.Re1 Qg6 14.fxe5 Kd8
click for larger viewMaterial is even and White controls more space, but we're still ahead in development and our king is relatively safe. White will need to take the time for Kg1-h1 to allow their Pd4 to move. So I would say that the position is either equal or unclear (E or ??). (b) 12.fxe4 Rxf1+ 13.Qxf1 Nxc3 14.Nxh7! (threatening 15.Qf8#. If 14...Qxh7 then 15. Qf7+ Kd8 16.Qf8#. But not 14.Nxc3 Bxd4+ 15.Kh1 Bxc3. White is running out of attacking pieces) 14...Bxd4+ 15.Kh1 d5
click for larger view(b1) 16.exd6+ Kxd6 17.Qf8+ Ne7
click for larger viewAnd, I think, Black's king will find safety on the q-side or the center after either 18.Bf4+ Kc6 or 18.Qf4+ Be5. In the meantime Black is threatening 18...Nxb1 and 18...Qxh7. So I would think that Black is better, just a question of how much. Conservatively I'd say Black is slightly better. (ME). (b2) 16.Bg5+
(b21) 16...Ke6 (or 16...Kd7) 17.Nf8+
click for larger viewWinning Black's queen (PP). So clearly this is not "the way". And I have a headache from looking at the complications so hopefully we can find something in there, assuming that there is something to be found. (b22) 16...Ke8! 17.Qf8+ Ke6 (or 17...Kd7). Now that White's queen occupies f8 the royal knight fork is not possible and Black has many threats (18...dxc4, 18...Bxe5) and I don't see how White can continue its attack. But White might have better than 17.Qf8+ so again I will chicken out again and assess the position as unclear (??)
click for larger viewTherefore I think that 11.f4 seems like a good approach for White. And I don't see why after 11.a4 we should waste a tempo to play 11...a6. With 3 pieces covering a5 and only White's Ra1 and no pawns supporting its advance, a4-a5 is not going to happen in the near future. The tempo saved by not playing 11...a6 can probably be put to much better use but right now my headache prevents me from looking at it in any detail. |
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Nov-19-17
| | AylerKupp: <<diceman> I've looked at this: 10.d4 Ba5 11.f4 Bb6 12.Kh1>
click for larger viewI must say that I am not a fan of ...h6. It seem to do much other than force the Ng5 to where it wants to go, f3. So after 12.h6 13.Nf3, 13...Nxe4 (or 13...Qxe4) seems risky after 14.fxe5.
click for larger viewMaterial is even and we still have a lead in development but White is consolidating and has a big space advantage. 15.Ba3+ developing another piece and forcing 15...d6 seems to make Black's king quite drafty after 16.exd6+ Nxd6 17.Qe2+ Kd8.
click for larger viewBut I'll admit that ...h6 does prevent the various lines with Bg5+ that I showed in my previous post so maybe I need to reconsider it. |
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| Nov-19-17 | | centralfiles: <honza> what about 14.h3 |
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| Nov-19-17 | | kwid: Well the team seems determined to play Ba5 which in my opinion is the wrong direction. Playing h6 instead would have denied white to come up with the refutation of the Traxler opening.
Because with an active defense we could hold and survive with a draw. |
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| Nov-19-17 | | centralfiles: <kwid> It’s not too late to post concrete variations to convince team to go with ...h6 |
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Nov-20-17
 | | al wazir: 9...Bc5 10. d4? Nxd4 11. cxd4 Bxd4.
Now what? |
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| Nov-20-17 | | kwid: <AylerKupp:
I must say that I am not a fan of ...h6. It seem to do much other than force the Ng5 to where it wants to go, f3.> Yes I agree the knight can retreat to f3 but they have also cxb4 and Nh7 which are not very pleasant positions to be in. But the Ba5 alternative just allows white to completely dominate the board with no chance to survive. With h6 and your anticipated Nf3 we may well see the position below which we should be able hold. The position below can be reached via the following move order: <9.c3 h6 10.Nf3> Ba5 11.d4 Kd8 12.d5 Ne7 13.d6 cxd6 14.Qxd6 Bc7 15.Qd3 Ng6
16.Be3 d6
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| Nov-20-17 | | kwid: < al wazir: 9...Bc5 10. d4? Nxd4 11. cxd4 Bxd4. Now what?>
You'er kidding right? White does not take but plays Be3 instead
and now what?
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Nov-20-17
| | Honza Cervenka: <centralfiles: <honza> what about 14.h3> I guess that 14...Ne3 15.Bxe3 dxe3 16.Nxh7 Rh8 is viable option but right now I am too busy to analyze the position properly. I hope that today evening I will be able to look at this more closely. |
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| Nov-20-17 | | diceman: <kwid:
This the critical position where white has seemingly several good options including:a) Qe1 with the idea Kd8 Qh4 where we play with minus one rook (Ra8) b) h3 we have h6 exd6+ or we play Ne3 BxN , NXh7 with all our potential King defenders on the wrong wing.> <Honza Cervenka: <1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6 4.Ng5 Bc5 5.Bxf7+ Ke7 6.Bc4 Rf8 7.O-O Qe8 8.b4 Bxb4 9.c3 Ba5 10.d4 d6 11.f4 Bb6 12.Kh1 exd4 13.e5 Ng4 14.Qe1>> When I looked at this position the other day.
click for larger view Instead of 14.Qe1 I was more worried
about 14.exd6+
click for larger view With the idea: 14...cxd6 15.Re1+
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| Nov-20-17 | | diceman: <AylerKupp: <kwid> Yes, of course I meant 9...Bc5. Having grown up with descriptive notation I often revert to listing the squares relative to whose move it is.> In my post above to <kwid> and <Honza Cervenka> related to 14.Qe1. I originally typed "Qk1" before catching my error. :) |
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| Nov-20-17 | | diceman: <kwid: <diceman:> In your line white has a4/a5 etc not f4> If early a4/a5's are a threat, we cant really stop it. It can be done in most of the "Evans" style lines. I think your diagram is incorrect as the bishop should still be on a5? Speaking on queenside play, White playing Bb5 at some point can also be a
problem. If you notice, White's LSB
tends to only be a spectator in many
variations, but Black's c6 knight holds
his center together.
<kwid: Well the team seems determined to play Ba5 which in my opinion is the wrong direction. Playing h6 instead would have denied white to come up with the refutation of the Traxler opening. Because with an active defense we could hold and survive with a draw.> <centralfiles: <kwid> It’s not too late to post concrete variations to convince team to go with ...h6> I also prefer ...h6.
Problem is, I don't think White will take the bait.
I believe White would play Nf3 and we would still face "Evans" style positions. |
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| Nov-20-17 | | diceman: <AylerKupp: <<diceman> I've looked at this: 10.d4 Ba5 11.f4 Bb6 12.Kh1> I must say that I am not a fan of ...h6.> That's OK! :)
I don't present it as perfect, just
what I came up with.
Many only look at lines they like.
I try to use "due diligence" and analyze
suggestions I would probably never play.
(Just in case)
Hopefully, with more eyeballs on it,
we can get down to the best variations. |
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| Nov-20-17 | | centralfiles: <diceman> 14.exd6+ Kd8 |
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| Nov-20-17 | | RandomVisitor:  Black has 9...h6 or 9...Ba5 here. |
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Nov-20-17
| | al wazir: <kwid: You'er kidding right? White does not take but plays Be3 instead and now what?> 11...h6. A) 12. Nh3 Ne6 13. Bxe6 Bxe3. 14. fxe3 dxe6. (Interesting ♙ structure, wouldn't you say?) B) 12. cxd4 exd4 13. Bxd4 Bxd4 14. Nf3 15. e5 Nh7 16. e6 dxe6 17. Re1 Rf6 18. Nd4 Nf8. |
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| Nov-20-17 | | kwid: <diceman: <kwid: <diceman:> In your line white has a4/a5 etc not f4>> Yes I remember discussing whites options if we decide to move our bishop to b6 before playing d6 where I thought that f4 is premature for white and thus a4 pawn advance could be better for them.
This position can be reached via c3 Ba5 or Bc5 and then after d4 play Bb6
click for larger viewwell when looking at it now i indistinctly avoid opening the diagonal b6/g1 and thus moved a4 with no particular plan behind this move. But this is not rapid and we should not make assumptions in a correspondence game and follow a prepared plan or ideas based on long range perceptions. I am sorry; I am thinking out loud again this is not a very good day for me health-wise it may well be best not to try influencing all of you when my recall ability is not what it used to be and could be erroneous. Going back to the position with a4 already played we do have resources
to hold e4 under pressure with Qg6 for example a6,a5 Ba7, how does white proceed from here? If Qb3 we do not play d6 instead Qg6 and reach 
click for larger viewhere it looks that white has to move their King out of the diagonal before playing f4 so Ra2 could be expected. this would give us time to play Rb8 idea b5 with queen side play giving us space to hold them off. |
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| Nov-20-17 | | kwid: < al wazir: <kwid: You'er kidding right? White does not take but plays Be3 instead and now what?> 11...h6. A) 12. Nh3 Ne6 13. Bxe6 Bxe3. 14. fxe3 dxe6. (Interesting ♙ structure, wouldn't you say?) B) 12. cxd4 exd4 13. Bxd4 Bxd4 14. Nf3 15. e5 Nh7 16. e6 dxe6 17. Re1 Rf6 18. Nd4 Nf8.> Well in your line B you have 14.Nf3 where white simply takes with Qxd4 instead and dominates the board because we play without our Bc8 and Ra8 which is curtain for us to say the least. |
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