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< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 25 OF 140 ·
Later Kibitzing> |
| Nov-20-17 | | kwid:  <al wazir:>
Your idea to sac the knight on d4 should help to save us if white does play f4 without Kh1 instead of the presumed a4 pawn advance.We just have to be careful not to allow white to open both the f and d file where Ba3 could force mate with our king on e7. If we take on d4 with our knight expecting cxd4 Bxd4 and now Kh1 we take the rook on a1. Then we have fxe5 Bxe5, Rf5 now not d6 but Ba1 saving the game. Looks like you done it! Great work!
So thus the Bishop moves are playable and h6 may not be necessary. |
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| Nov-20-17 | | diceman: <centralfiles: <diceman> 14.exd6+ Kd8> Yes, but the King back is what we're
trying to avoid.
<Honza Cervenka:
In this position we are not obliged to play 14...Kd8> Believe it or not, black may have
Nc6 to e5 after Re1+, but it's brutally
complex.
click for larger viewBlack has a fork threat on f2.
I looked at Nh3 to stop it.
There are tactics with black's
Qc6 and Bxh3 were he may hold.
While Ne3 was close
click for larger view I kept losing material.
So I believe Qc6 may be best.
click for larger view This sets up tactics against the
h3 knight and the c4 bishop.
The other question is,
would Re2 better defend the threat?
If he can, I believe black wants to
take back cxd6 instead of moving the king.
Right now I consider:
14.exd6+ best
14.h3 if that doesn't work
14.Qe1 probably equal as stated. |
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| Nov-20-17 | | diceman: <al wazir: <kwid: You'er kidding right? White does not take but plays Be3 instead and now what?> 11...h6. A) 12. Nh3 Ne6 13. Bxe6 Bxe3. 14. fxe3 dxe6. (Interesting ♙ structure, wouldn't you say?) B) 12. cxd4 exd4 13. Bxd4 Bxd4 14. Nf3 15. e5 Nh7 16. e6 dxe6 17. Re1 Rf6 18. Nd4 Nf8.> 12.Nh3? takes pressure off e6 and
allows black to liquidate.
<B) 12. cxd4 exd4 13. Bxd4 Bxd4> After 13.e5!
It looks like black is busted.
click for larger view13...dxe3
14. exf6+ gxf6
15. Ne4
click for larger view |
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Nov-20-17
 | | Honza Cervenka: <1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6 4.Ng5 Bc5 5.Bxf7+ Ke7 6.Bc4 Rf8 7.O-O Qe8 8.b4 Bxb4 9.c3 Ba5 10.d4 d6 11.f4 Bb6 12.Kh1 exd4 13.e5 Ng4 14.exd6+ cxd6 15.Re1+> Well, I have to admit that this is a real problem for us. Of course, 15...Nce5 is forced but after 16.Nh3 (covering f2) 16...Qc6 17.fxe5 Qxc4 18.Na3 white is clearly better, for example 18...Qd5 19.c4 Qc5 <[19...Qc6 20.exd6+ Kf7 (20...Kd8 21.Bg5+) 21.c5 Qxc5 22.Qb3+ Kg6 23.Nf4+ etc.]> 20.Nb5 <(Here 20.exd6+ is not so good as after 20..Kd8 white cannot play 21.Bg5+ for 21...Qxg5! 22.Nxg5 Nf2+ etc.)> 20...Ne3 (what else?) 21.Rxe3 dxe3 22.Ba3 Qc6 23.Bxd6+ Kf7 24.Ng5+ Kg8 25.Bxf8 h6 (25...Kxf8? 26.Qf1+ +-) 26.Bxg7 Kxg7 27.Nd6 hxg5 28.Qh5 e2 (avoiding 29.Rf1) 29.Qxg5+ Kh7 30.Qh5+ Kg7 31.Qxe2 Bh3 32.Rf1 Rf8 33.Rxf8 Kxf8 34.Qf1+ Ke7 35.Qf7+ Kd8 36.Qf8+ Kc7 37.Nb5+ Kd7 38.Qf7+ Kd8 39.Qg8+ Ke7 40.Qh7+ Kf8
41.Qxh3 etc. Maybe black can improve this line somewhere but white has other opportunities for sure too, and black's position is very difficult, if not lost by force all the time. For now I consider this to be a refutation of whole line starting with 9...Ba5, and I switch my vote to 9...h6. |
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| Nov-20-17 | | YouRang:  <RV> (or anyone) - If you had black, which would you choose? I'd go with ...Ba5 myself, but it's very hard to tell which is best. |
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Nov-20-17
| | Honza Cervenka: <1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6 4.Ng5 Bc5 5.Bxf7+ Ke7 6.Bc4 Rf8 7.O-O Qe8 8.b4 Bxb4 9.c3 Ba5 10.d4 d6 11.f4 Bb6 12.Kh1 exd4 13.e5 Ng4 14.exd6+> O.K., what about 14...Kd8? One interesting possibility can be 15.h3 Ne3 16.Bxe3 dxe3 17.Nxh7 Bxh3 (diagram)
click for larger view 18.Nxf8 (18.gxh3 Qe4+ and Qxh7) 18...Bf5 19.Na3 Qxf8 20.dxc7++ Kc8 (diagram) 21.Qh5 (h-file must be protected here) 21...g6 22.Qh7 Qxa3 23.Qg8+ Kxc7 24.Qxa8 e2 25.Bxe2 Qe7 26.Qh8 Qxe2 (diagram) 
click for larger viewBlack has three minor pieces for two Rooks and a Pawn and white King is quite vulnerable. I think black is not worse here. |
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Nov-20-17
 | | OhioChessFan: <1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6 4.Ng5 Bc5 5.Bxf7+ Ke7 6.Bc4 Rf8 7.O-O Qe8 8.b4 Bxb4 9.c3 Ba5 10.d4 d6 11.f4 Bb6 12.Kh1 exd4 13.e5 Ng4 14.exd6+ cxd6 15.Re1+ Nce5 16.Nh3 Qc6 17.fxe5 Qxc4 18.Na3 Qd5 19.c4 Qc5 20.Nb5 20...Ne3 (what else?) > I'm trying and failing to make Rf2 work in that line. I keep ending up thinking "We just need one more tempo" |
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| Nov-20-17 | | kwid: <Honza Cervenka: <1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6 4.Ng5 Bc5 5.Bxf7+ Ke7 6.Bc4 Rf8 7.O-O Qe8 8.b4 Bxb4 9.c3 Ba5 10.d4 10... d6 11.f4 Bb6 12.Kh1 exd4 13.e5 Ng4 14.exd6+> But we do have 10... Nxd4 not d6 already discussed which seem to lead to a slightly inferior endgame. In your line you give 15.h3 but Be2 may be more accurate for white. |
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| Nov-20-17 | | kwid: <OhioChessFan: <1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6 4.Ng5 Bc5 5.Bxf7+ Ke7 6.Bc4 Rf8 7.O-O Qe8 8.b4 Bxb4 9.c3 Ba5 10.d4 d6 11.f4 Bb6 12.Kh1 exd4 13.e5 Ng4 14.exd6+ cxd6 15.Re1+ Nce5 16.Nh3 Qc6 17.fxe5 Qxc4 18.Na3 Qd5 19.c4 Qc5 20.Nb5 20...Ne3 (what else?) > Why not 17...Nf2! instead of Qxc4? |
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| Nov-21-17 | | centralfiles: <kwid> Do you mean 10...Bb6 f4 Nxd4 |
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| Nov-21-17 | | centralfiles: <honza> you he a few hours to decide if 14...Kd8 works |
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| Nov-21-17 | | kwid: Hi Team,
My analysis confirms that h6 is the only move giving us chances to survive. With Ba5 we can not hold according to my assessment. Have fun. |
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| Nov-21-17 | | diceman: <kwid: <OhioChessFan: <1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6 4.Ng5 Bc5 5.Bxf7+ Ke7 6.Bc4 Rf8 7.O-O Qe8 8.b4 Bxb4 9.c3 Ba5 10.d4 d6 11.f4 Bb6 12.Kh1 exd4 13.e5 Ng4 14.exd6+ cxd6 15.Re1+ Nce5 16.Nh3 Qc6 17.fxe5 Qxc4 18.Na3 Qd5 19.c4 Qc5 20.Nb5 20...Ne3 (what else?) > Why not 17...Nf2! instead of Qxc4?> >That looks good!
click for larger view18. Nxf2 Rxf2
19. exd6+
(If 19.Bf1 Bh3! White looks lost)
click for larger view19... Kf6 (we want to avoid Bg5+)
click for larger view20. Rg1 Qxc4
21. Qh5 Rf5
click for larger viewLooks about equal.
Not bad considering we walked into
a double pin. |
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Nov-21-17
| | Honza Cervenka: <kwid: <OhioChessFan: <1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6 4.Ng5 Bc5 5.Bxf7+ Ke7 6.Bc4 Rf8 7.O-O Qe8 8.b4 Bxb4 9.c3 Ba5 10.d4 d6 11.f4 Bb6 12.Kh1 exd4 13.e5 Ng4 14.exd6+ cxd6 15.Re1+ Nce5 16.Nh3 Qc6 17.fxe5> 17...Nf2+> Good point. I have thought that it is impossible for simple 18.Nxf2 Rxf2 19.exd6+ "and it's over, we are done" but surprisingly 19...Kf6! is playable [19...Kf8? 20.Re8+! Qxe8 (20...Kxe8 21.Qe1+ +-) 21.d7 Qxd7 22.Ba3+ Ke8 23.Qe1+ +-] and after probably forced 20.Rg1 Qxc4 black seems to be just fine. |
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| Nov-21-17 | | truefriends: <kwid: Looks like you done it! Great work! So thus the Bishop moves are playable and h6 may not be necessary.> AND
<kwid: My analysis confirms that h6 is the only move giving us chances to survive.With Ba5 we can not hold according to my assessment.> Im confused...
Maybe its better to not jump to conclusions too fast.
Better try to improve eachothers lines and reach a common conclusion. |
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| Nov-21-17 | | diceman: From my last post:
<If 19.Bf1 Bh3! White looks lost> In spite of Re1+ and putting your knight into a pin of the king/queen.
(It's even attacked by a pawn)
Notice this is a real Traxler position:
click for larger viewBlack is active and attacking the castled king.
White has all his pieces on the first rank! |
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Nov-21-17
| | Honza Cervenka: <kwid: <Honza Cervenka: <1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6 4.Ng5 Bc5 5.Bxf7+ Ke7 6.Bc4 Rf8 7.O-O Qe8 8.b4 Bxb4 9.c3 Ba5 10.d4 10... d6 11.f4 Bb6 12.Kh1 exd4 13.e5 Ng4 14.exd6+ <Kd8>> In your line you give 15.h3 but Be2 may be more accurate for white.> Yes, 15.Be2 seems to be better for white. But with your suggestion 17...Nf2+ in line <1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6 4.Ng5 Bc5 5.Bxf7+ Ke7 6.Bc4 Rf8 7.O-O Qe8 8.b4 Bxb4 9.c3 Ba5 10.d4 d6 11.f4 Bb6 12.Kh1 exd4 13.e5 Ng4 14.exd6+ cxd6 15.Re1+ Nce5 16.Nh3 Qc6 17.fxe5> the alternative to 14...Kd8, that is 14...cxd6, is back as viable option in my humble opinion. |
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Nov-21-17
| | OhioChessFan: I am not finding much but am still trying, using some ideas presented by others. As I get into this, my wish list is a Rook on f2 and a tempo saved to prevent Bg5+. I have circled all over the place and just can't find the tempo. <dicemans> Kf6 in this post Team White vs Team Black, 2017 (kibitz #338) is an idea I'm trying to incorporate. The King is already exposed, so might as well use him as an active piece. |
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Nov-21-17
| | Honza Cervenka: My main concern with 9...h6 line is that white plays simply 10.Nf3 avoiding thus all crazy complications and keeping IMHO better game. Let's be frank, we are struggling for survival in whatever line we may choose here. And we are too short of time to decide with certainty, which alternative gives us a better chance. I think that 9...Ba5 is a bit better for us than 9...h6 10.Nf3 Ba5 but of course I can be wrong here. |
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| Nov-21-17 | | hoodrobin: <YouRang> I would choose 9...Ba5. |
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| Nov-21-17 | | WinKing: I'm in agreement with you <YouRang> on 9...Ba5. Followed by an eventual ...Bb6 with pressure along the g1-a7 diagonal targeting f2. |
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| Nov-21-17 | | MuzioFan: We are well prepared for the <9..Ba5> lines - better than the <9..h6> lines in fact! I'm still not sure if we should go for the risky <11.d4> or the comfortable <11.Nc3> after <9..h6>. |
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| Nov-21-17 | | RandomVisitor: <YouRang><If you had black, which would you choose?>It would depend on the high-level strategy. Ba5 preserves the bishop and h6 likely leads to an exchange of pieces. I think preserve the piece with Ba5 to maximize complication and pressure. Team black is under stress to make the most of their position. |
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| Nov-21-17 | | RandomVisitor: drumroll... |
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Nov-21-17
 | | Chessgames Challenge:
9...Ba5
FINAL VOTE TALLY:
| 9...Ba5 |
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10 | votes |
(52.6%) |
| 9...h6 |
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7 | votes |
(36.8%) |
| 9...Bc5 |
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2 | votes |
(10.5%) |
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total # of votes: 19
draw requests: 2 (10.5%)
click for larger view
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