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< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 154 OF 182 ·
Later Kibitzing> |
| Aug-23-13 | | capafan:  <crawfb5>
<Let us assume for the moment that 32. b4 is a dead end and 32. Kd3 wins the vote over 32. g4 (it leads 8 to 4 now, but of course that can change). Perhaps we can combine a few earlier ideas with <32. Kd3 Ke7 33. Kc2>> <With the idea of Ra2> <34...Rb5 35.c4 Rc5 36.g4
click for larger viewThis looks ok to me...BR does not penetrate, f5 still not possible, we still have connected pawns and we have advanced the c-pawn. I can work with this... |
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| Aug-23-13 | | Nickster: <Capafan>That position is great for white. I'ts one of the three pitfalls that black may fall into in this variation. I've mentioned this in earlier post. Unfortunately if black plays h5 in that sequence it kills our dream... This is the main reason I've been pushing for this Kd3/Kc2 line. |
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| Aug-23-13 | | morfishine: This represents my best effort with <32.g4> 32.g4 Ke7 33.g5 f6 34.h4 fxg5 35.hxg5 a4 36.b4 a3 37.Ra2 Ra8 38.Kf3 Kd6 39.Kg4 Kc6 40.c4 g6
41.Kf3
click for larger viewBlack to move 41. A delicate situation. White is trying to create a zugzwang-type position. ***** |
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Aug-23-13
 | | AylerKupp: <morfishine> Yes, that is weird. So lets approach this logically like chess players :-) and eliminate one step. I've uploaded the unzipped file to RapidShare, here is the link: http://rapidshare.com/files/2027767.... It is slightly larger than 10 MB so it may take you a while to download it. If that doesn't work for you, send me an email address and I will send you the *.xls file. Before I send it I will delete all the move tabs except the current one to make it a manageable size. I just did that to see how much smaller it would be and it's only 547 KB, so I can leave in some of the more recent move tabs if you want to see some of the recently-flushed analyses. Since you haven't downloaded the ATSS before I recommend that, if we are successful, that you read the 'Notes' tab that describes the organization and features of the spreadsheet. If nothing else, it will help you get to sleep if you have any problems in that area. |
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| Aug-23-13 | | capafan: <Nickster><<Capafan>That position is great for white. I'ts one of the three pitfalls that black may fall into in this variation. I've mentioned this in earlier post. Unfortunately if black plays h5 in that sequence it kills our dream... This is the main reason I've been pushing for this Kd3/Kc2 line.>> <<32. Kd3 Ke7 33. Kc2>> <With the idea of Ra2> <34...Rb5 35.c4 Rc5 36.g4 > Where else can Black play h5 but on move 32.?
If so...this could work, as this is not easy to see. |
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| Aug-23-13 | | morfishine: <capafan> Have you had any luck with <32.g4>? I seem to be making progress with "fixing" Black's pieces, but am still coming up a little short *****
<Aylerkupp> Thanks man! I'll check it out though maybe not til tomorrow. I was wanting to see what had been posted on 32.g4 so I wouldn't be redundant, but it probably won't matter with the voting ***** |
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| Aug-23-13 | | capafan: <morfishine><This represents my best effort with <32.g4>
32.g4 Ke7 33.g5 f6 34.h4 fxg5 35.hxg5 a4 36.b4 a3 37.Ra2 Ra8 38.Kf3 Kd6 39.Kg4 Kc6 40.c4 g6 41.Kf3 > Regarding g4, other than a straight draw, I did not have much luck...as far your zugzwang-type position, as long as the BR can move up and down you will unfortunately never reach such a condition. In addition, rather than 35....a4, I believe Black will continue his efforts on the kingside until he gets a passer. |
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Aug-23-13
| | AylerKupp: <morfishine> You showed the following end position in one of your lines:
click for larger viewYou didn't say so explicitly but I am assuming that you and everyone else (and now, me) know that this is an easily won position for White. Jesus de la Villa in "100 Endgames You Must Know" has the following position and he indicates that it is a win for White, calling it "Perfect cut along a rank":
click for larger viewThe idea is that the (White) rook prevents the (Black) king from crossing ranks to get to the promotion area, and that the defending king occupies the long side (to the left of the g-pawn). With the (defending) king on the short side, apparently the defender's rook could occupy the long side and deliver checks. The defending king may be on the same rank as the pawn or on the adjacent one. When both pawn and defending king are on the same rank, he refers to it as the "Perfect Cut". Your position is even better than "Perfect" for White. The g-pawn is more advanced, the Black king is a rank behind the g-pawn, and the White rook cuts it off in both the ranks and the files. Sure would be nice if the moves leading to this position were forced. |
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| Aug-23-13 | | morfishine: <Aylerkupp> Yes, this was a position only reached with Black abandoning protection of the a-pawn to activate his rook plus his King went full tilt to the Queen side. None of this is forced. As <capafan> mentioned, Black need only keep the rook on the a-file to draw (and make some not so difficult but accurate King moves along the way). Yes, it would be great to get a 'Lucena' type position, but our 1-pawn down King side and weak e-pawn preclude White from breaking through in time with this theme, plus the Black King can get to the queening Square if he wishes to defend that way <capafan> I was following <Nickster>'s idea of 35...a4, which makes sense. However, I agree with your comment about Black expanding on the Kingside and getting a passer. Thats why our King needs to be in range of that half of the board IMO ***** |
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| Aug-23-13 | | capafan: <morfishine><Thats why our King needs to be in range of that half of the board IMO> <32.Kd3 Ke7 33.Kc2 Ke6 34.Ra2 Rb5 35.c4 Rc5 36.g4 f6> <37.Kd3 g6 38.Ke3 f5 39.gxf5+ gxf5 40.exf5+ Kxf5 41.Kd3 Kf4 42.Rf2+> 
click for larger viewOur King stays in the middle of the board in <Nickster>'s line, Kd3...Kc2...Kd3...Ke3...Kd3. The "feint" Kd3...Kc2 may draw the BK to the middle rather than play h5 on move 32...if not h5 then White fairs well as shown above. |
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| Aug-23-13 | | hoodrobin: <capafan> Do you mean Black should play 32...h5? I haven't understood well possibly. |
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| Aug-23-13 | | morfishine: <Capafan> We'll see if Black follows that path. ***** |
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| Aug-23-13 | | Nickster: A recap on what I wrote on Aug. 19:
<Another advantage of the 31.Rb2 line is that it gives Black the chance to stray down the wrong path.An example:
31.Rb2 Kf8 32.Kd3 a4
click for larger viewThis is one possibility of Black going wrong. The antidote for this move took me a while to find. 33.b4 Rd8+ 34.Kc2 f5 35.Ra2!
click for larger viewWhite gets an sizable advantage. I have posted the lines earlier. I have double checked this morning and they are good.> The chances that Black will fall for this are SLIM. |
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| Aug-23-13 | | Nickster: Another re-post from Aug.19:
<Another way that Black can lose his way:31.Rb2 Kf8 32.Kd3 Ke7 33.Kc2 Rb6
click for larger viewThe idea is to swing this rook to the king side and harass the white pawns. 34.Ra2 Rf6/g6/h6 all turn in whites favor shortly. 34...Rb5 then 35.g4! to stop f5 and white has a good game.> The chances that black will play this are DECENT. |
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| Aug-23-13 | | Nickster: Re-post form Aug.19
<One last way that Black can go wrong is:31.Rb2 Kf8 32.Kd3 Ke7 33.Kc2 Rb5 34.g4! to stop the freeing f5 push. 
click for larger viewWithout that f5 freeing move Black's game becomes difficult. example:
34...Rb6 35.Ra2 Rh6 36.Rxa5 Rxh2+ 37.Kd3
click for larger viewBlack doesn't realize it yet but they're in trouble.
37...Ke6/d6 38.Ra6+ Kd7/e7 39.b4 nice advantage to white. 37...Rh3+ 38.Kc4 f6 39.b4 nice advantage to white.
This is the reason I vote for 31.Rb2. It gives black a chance to go wrong.> The chances that black will play this are so/so. |
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| Aug-23-13 | | Nickster: Re-post from Aug.19:
<If Black plays (what I believe anyway) are the best moves: 31.Rb2 Kf8 32.Kd3 Ke7 33.Kc2 h5! (to stop white's g4)
click for larger viewWell here Black has avoided all the pitfalls and it's time to offer a draw which I'm sure
Black will accept. White cannot stop Black's freeing f5 push only delay it. I have not found a way for White to break through. Position is equal.> My opinion has not changed. Position is a draw. We can only hope they fall in one of these pitfalls. I remember when I first posted this line <cro777> found 33...h5 in a matter of minutes so it's not the hard to find. Team White should be prepared to accept the draw soon.> |
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| Aug-24-13 | | morfishine: My last effort with 32.g4 followed by 33.g5 was unsuccessful. I thought I was onto something after 32...Ke7 33.g5 f6 <34.b4>, but this effort to increase the tension merely loses a pawn :( I'm curious for post-mortem sake: Is there anything wrong with <32.g4 Ke7 33.Kd3>? (pursuing the "Kc2" plan with g4 thrown in) ***** |
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Aug-24-13
 | | Chessgames Challenge:
32.Kd3
FINAL VOTE TALLY:
| 32.Kd3 |
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17 | votes |
(85.0%) |
| 32.g4 |
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2 | votes |
(10.0%) |
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total # of votes: 20
draw requests: 1 (5.0%)
click for larger view
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Aug-24-13
| | Chessgames Challenge: 
32.Kd3
click for larger view
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| Aug-24-13 | | stunningmove: <all> I think it's time to offer the draw. i can understand while 31.Kd1 was possible a draw offer was not indicated. At this point it's a "dead" draw, evidenced by no posts in the last 48 hours. It has bored everyone. Let us offer the draw on this vote as a united team. |
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| Aug-24-13 | | Pedro Fernandez: <Nickster>, in your last diagram I propose 34.Ra2!?
click for larger view
and I think the best black move is 34...Rb5 (the sac of black a-pawn by playing 34...Ke6 or 34...f5 are inferior, IMO) then 35.c4 Rc5 36.Kd3 Ke6
click for larger view
and the draw is not yet clear. |
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| Aug-24-13 | | capafan: <Pedro Fernandex><and I think the best black move is 34...Rb5 (the sac of black a-pawn by playing 34...Ke6 or 34...f5 are inferior, IMO) then 35.c4 Rc5 36.Kd3 Ke6> 32.Kd3 Ke7 33.Kc2 h5 34.Ra2 Rb5 35.c4 Rc5 36.Kc3 g6 37.g3 f5 38.Kd3 Ke6 39.Ke3 
click for larger viewand unfortunately now the draw is clearer...neither side can make progress. |
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Aug-24-13
| | AylerKupp: <Analysis Tree spreadsheet (ATSS) Update, Aug-24-13 (for real!)> The updated ATSS is ready for downloading from the following RapidShare link. This download link is also posted in the Sticky. I mistakenly identified the prevously posted version as the Aug-14-13 version but this one is the <real> Aug-24-13 update. http://rapidshare.com/files/1236913... This version of the ATSS contains all the posted analyses through Aug-24-13, 21:00 USA EST, just before 32.Kd3 was posted. It contains 39 still-applicable analyses, 18 with evaluations. (a) 32...a4: 14 analyses, 8 with evaluations. This would give Black a passed a-pawn since 33.b4 would be forced, but we would get 2 connected passed pawns in return. It doesn't seem to me to be a good deal for Black (b) 32...h5: 1 analys1s, with an evaluation. Eventually we would probably like to play g2-g4 to at least discourage ...f5, since without ...f5 it will be difficult for Black to get a passed k-side pawn and get k-side counterplay. If we do see 32...h5 then it might be an indication, at least as Team Black is concerned, that we should have played 32.g4! :-) (c) 32...Ke7: 29 analyses, 16 with evaluations. Probably the most natural move and the one I would expect. Black continues to centralize their king and prepare to help out in stopping the advance of our q-side pawns. I was somewhat disappointed to see that this last move had the lowest number of voters (20) and lowest percentage of team players voting (16.8%) than any previous move. It is perhaps understandable since the position has become simplified and we have not been able to find a conclusive win, but this is still an unbalanced position and rook endgames are the ones where it is the easiest to make a mistake. So anything could still happen. Hang in there! |
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| Aug-24-13 | | capafan: <aylerKupp><I was somewhat disappointed to see that this last move had the lowest number of voters (20) and lowest percentage of team players voting (16.8%)> Maybe so, but still only one draw request. |
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Aug-24-13
| | AylerKupp: <<morfishine> I'm curious for post-mortem sake: Is there anything wrong with <32.g4 Ke7 33.Kd3>?> If there is anything wrong with it then it escapes me, which is not that hard to do. It would depend on the continuation after 32.Kd3 Ke7 33.g4 (we didn't have any analyses with 32.g4 Ke7 33.Kf3, we only had several with 33.b4). Would we respond to 33...g6 with 34.g5? And, if so, would Black go for 34...f5 35.gxf6+ Kxf6?
click for larger viewIf so then 36.Kc4 to be followed by 37.Ra2 (if allowed) looks good for White. But after 36...Rc8+ White would have to either meekly retreat 36...Kd3 or exchange the c-pawn for Black's a-pawn, 37.Kb5 Rxc3 (if 37...Ra8, 38.Ra2 and then 38...Rb8+ 39.Kc4 Rc8+ 40.Kd3 will likely transpose into one of the Kc2 lines ) 38.Kxa5
click for larger viewAnd this is probably a draw if Black rushes their king to the q-side with 38...Ke6. So, while there is probably nothing wrong with 32.g4 Ke7 33.Kd3 (or 33.Kd3 Ke7 34.g4), I don't think that there is anything particularly great with it either. |
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Kibitzing
