Team White vs Team Black (2013) Slaughterhouse d5

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Team White vs Team Black
"Slaughterhouse d5" (game of the day Sep-13-2013)
Battle of the Brains (2013), chessgames.com, rd 4, Apr-24
Sicilian Defense: Lasker-Pelikan. Sveshnikov Variation Chelyabinsk Variation (B33) · 1/2-1/2

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< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 27 OF 182 · Later Kibitzing>
May-03-13		Boomie: <stunningmove: Qb6> 1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Qb6 5. Nb3 Nf6 6. Nc3 e6 7. Bd3 click for larger view The OE stats after 7. Bd3: Opening Explorer I suspect the stats you posted are from too few games to be significant.

May-03-13		stunningmove: kwid, the number one move after 7Bd3 is 7...a6 to keep white out of b5 and keep the pawn on c2. However I think we are getting far too deep in a line we probably won't play. I say we discuss what our best option is.

May-03-13		stunningmove: Boomie, not arguing for the Grivas but Chesstempo's database is much larger than OE. Chess tempo has 1123 7.Bd3 games, OE only as 298. So Chesstempo is 4 times larger. That's why I don't use OE. I think this is important when looking at whatever opening we choose. Perhaps we can agree not to trust OE.

May-03-13		Boomie: <stunningmove: posting tip> It's great to have your contributions. I have some advice for posting. Before posting, do a little proof reading. Notice in your pgn posts, some letters are being interpreted as pieces because they are between braces. Also there are extra characters like #. We can't easily copy and load this because of these anomalies.

May-03-13		Boomie: <stunningmove: stats> What made me suspicious was this stat: 7. Be3 0/33/67 This can't be a result over a lot of games or I'm interpreting these numbers wrong. It looks like 3 games with one draw and two black wins.

May-03-13		stunningmove: Yes, the Robson game was a copy/paste, sorry about that. But it is a super game and fun to play over. If we actually play the Grivas, I'll take time and make sure I post with FENs and all the proper symbols. The Chesstempo stats were at 2600+ GM level only, so a much smaller but more meaningful statistic. Chesstempo can dice and slice by year and rating so I've found it to be an invaluable resource. I think it's like $25/year? Can't remember exactly.

May-03-13		Boomie: <stunningmove> One shortcut to a game score is to use the CG db. The Robson game is here Robson vs Yermolinsky, 2010. Game comments are difficult to make readable though. Using white space can help a bit. A solid block of moves and comments is a bit daunting. By the way, who wrote those comments?

May-03-13		Hesam7: <stunningmove> actually the main lines after 4...Qb6 5 Nb3 Nf6 6 Nc3 e6 lead to position that are very close (or are identical) to those arising after the Najdorf-Scheveningen hybrid: 1 e4 c5 2 Nf3 d6 3 d4 cd4 4 Nd4 Nf6 5 Nc3 a6 6 f4 e6 click for larger view I am on board with Grivas if you can convince me on the following lines: (A) 4...Qb6 5 Nb5 (B) 4...Qb6 5 Be3 Qb2 6 Nb3 (C) 4...Qb6 5 Be3 Qb2 6 Nc6

May-03-13		stunningmove: Boomie, it was British IM, Richard Palliser. Chess Publishing is where I found it.

May-03-13		kwid: you need to be member at chesstempo, so I just looked again to see if Qb6 is a tempo loosing move. you mentioned a6 in reply to Bd3: 4... Qb6 5. Nb3 Nf6 6. Nc3 e6 <7. Bd3 a6> 8. Be3 Qc7 9. f4 d6 10. g4 h6 11. Qe2 b5 12. O-O-O Bb7 13. Kb1 Rc8 14. Rhg1 Be7 15. h4 Nb4 16. g5 click for larger view there got to be better moves for black --. I'm watching hockey playoffs,no more time for chess today.

May-03-13		stunningmove: Again, Hesam7, I'm not a champion of the Grivas however it would be different, unexpected and fun. A. 5.Nb5 both 5...a6 and 5... Nf6 have much higher black winning percentages at 2400+. Here's a game Ehlvest vs Yermolinsky, 2000 B. 5.Be3,Qxb2 6.Nb3 see my line below C. 5.Be3,Qxb2 6.Nxc6 1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Qb6 5. Be3 Qxb2 6. Nxc6 Qxa1 7. Bc4 dxc6 8. Bd4 Bg4 9. f3 Rd8 10. Bxa1 Rxd1+ 11. Kxd1 Bc8 at least that is my 5 minute thought on it.

May-03-13		stunningmove: kwid, the Grivas is a tempo losing move. Always. The idea is driving the N to b3 is worth the wasted Q move. Who knows? Like I said, let's look at an option we all like. Personally I love all 2...Nc6 games. Whatever we choose I will be happy. I think I prefer the Sveshni or the Kali but once the N is on c6, I can play it.

May-03-13		Eggman: <<stunningmove>> What does "$5" mean in some of your posts above?

May-04-13		Hesam7: <Here is a cleaned up and summarized version of the commentary:> 1 e4 c5 2 Nf3 Nc6 3 d4 cd4 4 Nd4 Qb6 5 Nb3 Nf6 6 Nc3 e6 7 Qe2 Bb4 8 Bd2 O-O 9 a3 Be7 9...Bc3?! 10 Bc3 e5, Black gives up the bishop-pair but blunts White's Q-side minor pieces. 11 O-O-O Re8 [11...Rd8 12 Rd6! Qc7 13 Rf6 gf6 14 Qg4 Kh8 15 Qh4; 11...d6?! 12 Rd6! Nd4 13 Rd4 ed4 14 Bd4 Qc6 15 e5 both with excellent play for the exchange] 12 f3 d6 13 Rd6 Nd4 14 Rd4 ed4 15 Bd4 Qc6 16 Qb5 [many would have preferred to keep queens on with 16 Qf2 followed by pushing the K-side pawns] 16...Qb5 17 Bb5 Bd7 Georgiadis-Zubarev, Rethymnon 2010, here White should have retained the bishop-pair with 18 Bd3 with more than enough compensation for the exchange. 10 O-O-O 10 g4 d5! 11 g5 Ne4 12 Ne4 de4 13 Qe4 e5 14 h4 would have given Black good counterplay in Abdulov-Khurtsidze, Canakkale 2010, had she gone in for the bold 14...g6! followed by ...f5; 10 e5 Nd5 11 g3 [11 Nd5 ed5 12 O-O-O Qc7 13 f4 d6 with sufficient counterplay] 11...d6 12 ed6 Bd6 13 Bg2 Be5 Black equalized in Zdebskaja-Petrov, Tromso 2010. 10...d5!? 10...d6?! 11 g4 a6 12 g5 Nd7 13 h4 Qc7 14 f4! White was better in Anand-Kramnik, Mainz 2001. Black might prefer to first regroup his queen with Kurajica's 10...Qc7. 11 Be3 Natural enough, but taking play into a French structure with 11 e5!? Nd7 as I've pointed out before in the notes to Tukhaev-Oleksienko, 11...Ne8!? doesn't block the light-squared bishop and covers the d6-square against any b5 ideas Vokarov-Golod, lovdiv 2008, continued 12 Be3 Qc7 13 f4 f6 14 Nb5 Qb8 15 ef6 Nf6 16 N5d4 e5 17 fe5 Qe5=; 12 f4 Nc5 [12...a6 13 Be3 Qc7 14 Qh5! b5 15 Bd3 g6 16 Qh6 b4 17 h4!! Re8 18 h5 Bf8 19 Qg5 h6 20 Qg3 and in Ootes-Siebrecht, Wijk aan Zee 2009, Black was overwhelmed on the K-side] 13 Nc5 Qc5 14 h4 Bd7 15 Be1 Rfc8 was seen in Van Delft-Neverov, Dieren 2010, and now Van Delft's suggestion of 16 Rh3!? might be best. 11...Qc7 12 ed5 Nd5! Black clears the f6-square for his bishop. 12...ed5 13 g3 Re8 14 Bg2 White has a small but clear edge. 13 Nd5 ed5 14 g3! 14 Qh5 Be6 [14...g6!? 15 Qh6 Ne5 16 Be2 Ng4 17 Bg4 Bg4 doesn't seem too bad for Black who will obtain counterplay in the central files] 15 Nd4 Nd4 16 Bd4 Bf6! 17 Bf6 Qf4 18 Rd2 Qf6 19 Bd3 g6 20 Qh6 Rfc8 21 h4! gave White an edge in Mijovic-Haznedaroglu, Antalya 2009. 14 Rd5 Be6 15 Rd1 Rfd8 16 Nd4 [16 Kb1 Bf6 17 Rd8 Rd8 18 f4 Qc8!?, preparing ideas of ...f5 or ...g4, as well as an exchange on b3 followed by ...e6, another way to increase the pressure] 16...Nd4 17 Bd4?! [17 Rd4 Bf6 18 Rd8 Rd8 19 Qb5 looks like a better defence] 17...Rac8 gave Black a strong initiative before White collapsed with 18 Be5? in Tirto-Nadanian, Kuala Lumpur 2006, and now Black could have won on the spot with 18...Bg5 19 Kb1 Qe5!. 14 g4!? happened in Movsesian-Grivas, Panormo 2001, 14...Rd8 [the active 14...Ne5!? looks more to the point] 15 Bg2 Be6 16 Kb1 Rac8 17 f4 [Movsesian later suggested 17 h3!? and after 17...Bf6 18 c3 White has an edge] 17...d4!? 18 Bc1 [18 Nd4!? Nd4 19 Bd4 Qf4 20 Bb7 Qg4 21 Qg4 Bg4 22 Bc8 Bd1 23 Rd1 Bf6! 24 c3 Bd4 25 Rd4 Rc8 26 Rd7 f5 Black retains decent counterplay right into the endgame] 18...d3 19 Rd3 Rd3 20 Qd3 Bg4 when Black had sufficient counterplay. 14...Bf5!? Yermolinsky isn't worried about the d-pawn. In his notes to his game with Grivas, Movsesian mentioned 14...Be6 15 Bg2 Rfd8 16 Nd4 Bf6 without giving an assessment. Black is quite solid here, but with 17 Rhe1 Bd4 18 Bd4 Rac8 19 c3 White can claim an edge. 14...Ne5!? 15 Bf4! Bd6 16 Bg2 Bg4 17 f3 Bf5 18 Nd4 White is slightly for choice. 15. Bg2 After 15 Rd5 Black should opt for 15...Be6 since 15...Be4?! 16 Bf4! Bd5 17 Bc7 Bh1 18 Bh3 likely favours White's active pieces and queen over the black rooks. 15...Rac8 16 Bf4?? 16 Bd5? Nb4! 17 ab4 Qc2 18 Qc2 Rc2 19 Kb1 Rc6 20 Ka2 Ra6 21 Na5 Bb4 when Black regains his piece with some advantage; 16 Kb1 Ne5 [Black can't penetrate down the a-file after 16...Nb4? 17 ab4 Bc2 18 Ka2] 17 Nd4 Bg4 18 f3 Bd7 would have been about equal; 16 Rd5! Be6 [16...Ne5 17 Nd4 Bd3!? 18 Qd1 Bg6 19 Kb1 and White is defending] 17 Rb5 a6 18 Rb6 Bd7, but after 19 Rd1 Rfe8 20 Be4 does Black really have enough for the pawn? I suspect not. 16...Qb6 17 Rd5!? 17 Rd2 Bb4! 18 Rd3 [18 ab4? Nb4 19 c3 Na2 20 Kd1 Rc3! gives Black a huge attack] 18...Bd3 19 Qd3 Bc5 White clearly hasn't anywhere near enough for the exchange. 17...Bc2! 18 Qc2 Na5 Not best, 18...Ne5!? 19 Nc5 Bc5 20 Kb1 Ba3 21 Qd2? then Black would have had 21...Qg6 followed by a crushing invasion on c2. 19 Na5?! White won't get enough for the queen. 19 Nc5 Bc5 20 Kb1 Ba3 21 Qd2 Nc4 [21...Qg6 can now be met by 22 Qd3] 22 Qd4 looks like a better try than the game. 19...Rc2 20 Kc2 Qf2 21 Rd2 Qc5 22 Kb1 Qa5 23 Rc1 b5! 24 Rd7 Bf6 25 Bd6?? Qd2! 26 Rc2 Qd1 27 Rc1 Qd3 28 Rc2 Re8 29 Bc6 Re1 [0-1]

May-04-13		Eggman: Could we make it clear, when we are quoting analysis, where this analysis is coming from, whether from the poster himself or from some quoted source?

May-04-13		stunningmove: Sorry Eggman, the analysis is from Richard Palliser. When I copy/paste pgn's from Chesspublishing.com the symbols like ?!, ! get mistranslated into strange symbols like 5$ and sometimes the letters in words come out with chess symbols as letters! Thanks to Hesam7 for cleaning it up (which I usually do), just didn't have time last night. I will be sure not to post an "unclean" version again.

May-04-13		stunningmove: So folks, the choice of openings from this point is pretty much black's choice. Where do we go from here?

May-04-13		Eggman: No worries, <stunningmove>. Thanks for the clarification. Meanwhile, since I'm not so sure I like the Godiva Variation (4...Qb6) and since I can't think of a way to steer the game into new terrain from here anyhow, how would folks feel about playing 4...g6?

May-04-13		Pedro Fernandez: A few people are thinking that after 4.Nxd4 it is probable Team Black play 4...e5, click for larger view but I'm a little skeptic at respect. let's recall that recently Carlsen defeated to Nakamura in this variation (Tata Steel 2013). Anyway, if that is the case, after 5.Nb5 d6 the move 6.bg5 click for larger view doesn't make much sense. We dispose of better moves than the latter one.

May-04-13		stunningmove: <eggman> do you have a favorite line in the accelerated dragon? I don't like white's 5.c4 setting up the bind but if you have something special please share. After 5.c4 black's winning percentage is only 18% according to chesstempo.com 4...Nf6 forces 5.Nc3 and prevents c4. We can then play 5...d6 for a Richter Rauser or 5...e5 for a Sveshnikov. 4...e6 permits c4 but black holds the upper hand with his DSB free. 5.Nc3 usually plays into a Taimanov. 4...e5 plays into a Kalashikov but <kwid> is not a fan. <kwid> is a former champ correspondence player very highly rated. When Kurt speaks I usually listen. So which shall it be folks? I vote for the Svishnikov as it is the sharpest choice. My second choice is a Taimanov.

May-04-13		Hesam7: <stunningmove: So folks, the choice of openings from this point is pretty much black's choice. Where do we go from here?> My vote goes to 4...e6. Although I would be happy with 4...Qb6. But I hope we stay away from classical, Black does not do well in Rauzer these days. I also dislike Sveshnikov and Kalashnikov but that is more a matter of taste.

May-04-13		JAMESROOK: i don't know these lines that well - but isn't Nxd4 more likely to give us an advantage?

May-04-13		kwid: May-04-13 < stunningmove:> <4...Nf6 forces 5.Nc3 and prevents c4. We can then play 5...d6 for a Richter Rauser or 5...e5 for a Sveshnikov.><< 4...e5 plays into a Kalashikov but <kwid> is not a fan.>> We need a majority of our small team to give directions. My view is not important at all. At this stage of the game the available opening theory allows us to select Nf6 more or less forcing Nc3 if white takes now with Nxd4 or e5 playing the Kalashnikov if desired by the team. My personal views about opening strategy seem obsolete when compared to the new engine driven lines. I thought that the center control was the most critical aspect of any opening and thus move like e5 was abhorrent to me when I see a backward pawn with a hole on d5. But the tactical opportunities gained with such forcing moves was overlooked because of a lack to dare entering such positions if one is not blessed with skills like Bronstein or Tal for examples. I am strictly positional oriented player who considers long range planning trying to exploit tempo loosing moves to gain initiatives to set advantages endgame positions unless my opponent blunders. My main objective is to shift forces to create an unbalance to eventually overpower the lesser defensive force. Such a plan requires cooperation from the opponent to give up space and or fall behind with the force development because applying equal force will self destruct into an unwinnable position. With all the opening lines now available for both sides it will be very difficult to gain an edge in the early stage of the game. Therefore we must select lines which maintain a degree of complexity which would allow us to out play our opponent with a long plan reaching hopefully beyond their horizon or correct position assessment ability.

May-04-13		kwid: Let's assume we see 4. Nxd4 and you suggest e6 click for larger view and are tempting white to play for center d5 square control with c4 or as theory indicates white should just go for keeping the initiative with piece development such as 5. Nc3 Qc7 6. Be3 click for larger view so a6 may have to be played here and will most likely see 7. Qd2 Nf6 8. O-O-O Bb4 9. f3 click for larger view here we will have to decide to play d5 with Ne7 first or exploit Qd2/Be3 set up with a threat of Nc4 via Na5 or Ne5. castling seems dangerous because white is poised for a kingside attack by shifting their forces together with a pawn storm via g4/h4 etc. In this position Ne7 as played recently seems to be the most logical continuation to defend against a kingside space gaining ploy from white. But is it adviceable to open the center with a volnerable king position? I think we need a solid plan to continue from here.

May-04-13		Boomie: <kwid> 1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 e6 5. Nc3 Qc7 6. Be3 a6 7. Qd2 Nf6 8. O-O-O Bb4 9. f3 Actually 9...0-0 10. g4 b5 (or b5 first) seems to be fine here. Opening Explorer click for larger view The stats look good for black and this variation is quite modern so we might find something new.

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