|
< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 6 OF 6 ·
Later Kibitzing> |
| Mar-20-20 | | asiduodiego: <MissScarlett> In the analysis I've seen, everyone agrees that 22... h6? probably was trying to prevent the manouvre of the White Queen from f5 to g5 to c1. Sadly for him, he missed that 22... Re5! achieved the same result, but with more activity (although the White Queen can eventually escape via f2). |
|
| Mar-20-20 | | asiduodiego: <HeMateMe> For what I've read, the unintuitive 9. Kf2 is a normal move in the current lines in the Slav. It seems odd, but in the usual lines played, there is not immediate danger for the White King, and usually he can castle by hand and at the same time, solidify the center. That's why 9 ... e5! is such a beautiful move. By sacrificing a pawn, Black throws the center into turnoil, while the White King is still in the open, a somewhat similar idea to the Marshall Counter attack in the Ruy Lopez (although in that line, the king is castled, but the pawn sacrifice gives Black all the activity in the position). I guess from now on, this manouvre of castling by hand will drop in popularity, because, even if Fabi didn't find the best moves, the e5 pawn sacrifice has lots of potential for incredible tactics and gives Black all the activity. |
|
| Mar-20-20 | | SChesshevsky: <Maybe mixed up move order...> No move order mix up. I underestimated how good and deep Caruana's prep was here. Namely that Ding has played this 9.Kf2 twice before: Ding Liren vs Zhou Jianchao, 2010 Ding Liren vs M Paragua, 2012 While Caruana's prep was excellent, I'm not sure the chess basis is all that sound. Seems unless there is a forced mate or major material gain, the long term play isn't great for Black. And to get the forced mate or material gain, it probably relies on White falling for some trick or missing something big. Maybe good in blitz or against lower rated but could be questionable against a 2800 in classical time. But given Ding's two tough losses prior, Caruana might've thought the moment was right to target him with complicated play. Kudo's are also due Ding. Having some idea of the complications of the 9.Kf2 lines, I'm guessing he had an opportunity to pass on it but went into it anyway. |
|
| Mar-20-20 | | Eyal: Based on some serious analysis that was published since the game (particularly that of Jacob Aagaard in Chess Life Online), some main conclusions, backing up some things that were already mentioned in various comments here: - 9...e5 in itself is an extremely interesting concept. - By the time Caruana played 17...Ng6 he probably mixed up something in his prep (unless he was knowingly bluffing, but that would be very untypical of him), since 18.Qc1! should give White a winning advantage. A likely possibility is that the "correct" line was 17...Rc8! 18.Ne3 and only now 18...Ng6, once the route of the queen back to c1 is blocked. - But Ding played 18.Qf5 instead (his first not-computer-accurate move), so Black was still ok - until 22...h6? instead of 22...Re5!. A key point is that 22...Re5 23.Qh3 Qb4 pretty much forces White to play 24.Rb1, whereas after 22...h6 23.Rd1! this maneuver is not effective anymore, since White can place the rook on d2, a much better square. - Once Black's position became really difficult, the Q-side pawn advance on moves 25-26 was a good idea for counterplay, but 27...b4? was bad and pretty much doomed Black completely. Instead, 27...Rec8! (making b4 more of a threat) still gave him some chances to save the game. |
|
| Mar-20-20 | | Eyal: Btw, after the game Ding had a 16-minute interview with Hou Yifan on the Chinese FIDE channel - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xY2.... At about 5:34:20 he mentions 18.Qc1 and gives a line that involves a piece sac for Black – 18…Rc8 19.Nd2 Bxd5 20.exd5 Nxd5 21.Nb3. If anyone who understands Chinese watches this, I'd be really curious to know exactly what he says there (I suppose he explains why he didn't go for it). |
|
| Mar-20-20 | | parmetd: Aagaard's analysis shows 12...Be4 is unplayable meaning this entire line by Caruana was nothing but a bluff. Bad time and place for the World #2 to try bluffing the world #3. |
|
| Mar-20-20 | | Eyal: Aagaard's analysis also shows that 12...Bb3, what Caruana actually played, is playable (though risky, obviously). |
|
| Mar-20-20 | | parmetd: No, it did not show Bb3 was playable at all. It showed that prep even on this level can be a complete joke. |
|
| Mar-20-20 | | Eyal: <It showed that prep even on this level can be a complete joke.> That's just nonsense. Anyway, people can look up the analysis and judge for themselves: https://new.uschess.org/news/aagaar... |
|
| Mar-20-20 | | parmetd: Nope. 9... e5?? Garbage prep. Really if this is the Caruana we can expect the rest of the event he will be lucky to be world #2 by the time the event is over. |
|
Mar-20-20
 | | chancho: Ding deserves all the credit in the world for being able to find the best moves with the clock working against him all throughout. I thought he was toast but he showed determination and sheer guts to win it. |
|
| Mar-20-20 | | asiduodiego: <Eyal> I've heard some commentators saying that the line after 18. Qc1 can be very dangerous for White. It's the best move, no doubt about it, but in that case 18 ... Rc8 is coming and things look very dangerous again for White. I guess Ding decided against it in the consideration that the Queen in f5 looks more "active" (although, as many analysis have proved, the Queen is basically trapped there). It was a hard position, so hard that even Fabiano lost his way there, so I don't think either player can be blamed for not finding the perfect moves in such a wild position. Of course, after the now infamous 22 h6?, Ding played the defence like a machine, and Fabiano's position went downhill. |
|
| Mar-20-20 | | Eyal: <asiduodiego> Yeah, it's certainly possible that's what Ding thought about 18.Qc1 - perhaps specifically about the line with the piece sac that he mentioned in the interview with Hou Yifan (that's why I said I'd be curious to know what he says there exactly). And I'm certainly not criticizing Ding for the quality of his play. The point was just that if deep/computer-aided analysis shows the position after 18.Qc1 to be so objectively bad for Black, it's unlikely that it was the purpose of Caruana's prep to get there, especially since analysis shows there are better lines for Black (which are also full of risks for White if he isn't very accurate). |
|
| Mar-20-20 | | MordimerChess: The crazy lines starts with 12...Be4, I am really surprised that Caruana didn't go for it. This is just one of the craziest a'la Tal variations:
12...Be4 13. g4 Re8 14. Nxf7 Kxf7 15. g5 Ng4+ 16. Kg3 Bxc3∞ And of course later:
21...Re5 22. Qh3 Nf4 23. Qh4 g5 24. Qg3 N6h5 25. Bd4 Nxg3 26. hxg3 Nxe2 27. Kxe2 Ree8 28. Rh5 f6 29. Rah1⩲ But there are many more! Really crazy stuff.
22...h6 was probably mistake in memorizing line - and it give Ding tempo to consolidate and get comfy position. Anyway, if you are interested in some crazy lines here, check out my analyzis:
https://youtu.be/IG1kMc0jB6I
It took me a while but I covered quite some cool stuff here ;) |
|
Mar-20-20
 | | keypusher: <7he5haman>
<<keypusher:
Like a lot of people, I expected 12....Be4, but White seems to keep an advantage after 13.g4 Bxc3 14.bxc3 Qxd5 15.g5 Qxe5 16.gxf6 Qxf6 17.h4>Surely Black's got the advantage in this line? He's a pawn up, has better development, and the safer King.> Looks like maybe you melded my two lines (really, SF's lines) together? Anyway, looks like more serious analysis of 12....Be4 has been posted by others. |
|
| Mar-21-20 | | rune ohlsson: can´t let 10. e4 go!
10. e4 exd4 11. Na2 b5 12. axb5 cxb5 13. Nxb4 bxc4 14. exf5 d3 15. Be3 Are there any computers who can deny that White has a clear advantage? |
|
| Mar-21-20 | | Kurakotsaba: First, it was ZHOU JIANCHAO got toasted in 2010 with DING's Kf2 virus.
2012, it is Paragua's turn to get injected with this Kf2 virus.
2020! Whooooooot! Whooooot! Caruana inhaled/absorbed the droplets of this dreaded Ding's Kf2. Ding did not even bother to sneeze! |
|
| Mar-21-20 | | Eyal: <rune ohlsson: can´t let 10. e4 go! 10. e4 exd4 11. Na2 b5 12. axb5 cxb5 13. Nxb4 bxc4 14. exf5 d3 15. Be3 Are there any computers who can deny that White has a clear advantage?> Yes - provided Black plays 12...Bc5 in this line; then he has strong initiative after 13.exf5 cxb5 14.Na3/d2 d3+ 15.Kg3 Nc6. Or else 13.b4 cxb5 14.bxc5 bxc4 15.Bxc4 Be6. (Not that these positions are necessarily <bad> for White, but it doesn't seem like a clear-cut refutation of Black's play either.) |
|
Mar-21-20
| | keypusher: <rune ohlsson> At the end of your line (10. e4 exd4 11. Na2 b5 12. axb5 cxb5 13. Nxb4 bxc4 14. exf5 d3 15. Be3) my SF 10 has an eval of +0.66 after a couple of hours. |
|
| Mar-21-20 | | parmetd: Rune ohlsson what you are seeing is people are saying black is fine just because Fabi played it. Wait, it won't ever be repeated because it's a very very bad move. It might take a decade or more before someone rolls it out as a surprise attack. |
|
| Mar-21-20 | | rune ohlsson: Eyal, I don´t think in your line 15. --Nc6 is the right move, but 15. -- Nh5 definitly is! |
|
| Mar-21-20 | | Charlie Durman: Carauna is a preparation player
DING took him outta this
DING DONG DING 😎😎😎 |
|
| Mar-22-20 | | zipperbear: <Eyal: Btw, after the game Ding had a 16-minute interview with Hou Yifan on the Chinese FIDE channel. At about 5:34:20 he mentions 18.Qc1 and gives a line that involves a piece sac for Black 18. ... Rc8 19.Nd2 Bxd5 20.exd5 Nxd5 21.Nb3. If anyone who understands Chinese watches this, I'd be really curious to know exactly what he says there (I suppose he explains why he didn't go for it).> He said he saw 18. ♕c1 after he played 18. ♕f5 and he thought after 21.♘b3 white is better. |
|
| Mar-22-20 | | Eyal: <zipperbear> Thanks. |
|
| May-06-22 | | cormier: depth=34 | Komodo 2901.00
0.00 21... Re5 22. Qh3 Nf4 23. Qh4 g5 24. Qxf4
depth=33 | Komodo 2901.00
+0.12 23... g5 24. Qxf4 gxf4 25. Bd4 Rg5 26. a5 Rg6 27. a6 b6 28. e5 Nd7 29. d6 Qd8 30. Bd3 Rh6 31. Bf5 Qh4+ 32. Kf1 Nc5 33. Nd5 Kf8 34. Rd1 Qg5 35. Ne7 Re8 36. h4 Rxh4 37. Rxh4 Qxh4 38. Nc6 Qh6 39. b4 Nxa6 40. Ra1 Nb8 41. Nxb8 Rxb8 |
|
 |
|
|
< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 6 OF 6 ·
Later Kibitzing> |
Kibitzing
Annotations by 