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| Jan-14-05 | | patzer2: Not all of Alekhine's sacrifices were sound. In this case, after the demolition sacrifice 10. Bxh7+?! Kxh7 11. Ng5+, Black can obtain a winning advantage with 11...fxg5! Play might continue 11...fxg5! 12. Qh5+ Kg8 13. Kg8 hxg5 14. f4 Bxg5 15. Qh8+ Kf7 16. Qh5+ Ke7 17. g4 Rf7 18. Qxg5+ Kd7 19. Qg6 Rxf4 20. Rh7 Ne7 21. Rxg7 Qe8 22. Qg5 Rf7 23. Rxf7 Qxf7 24. 0-0-0 b6  with a winning advantage for Black. However, I suspect that for Alekhine, his 10. Bxh7?! was his way of giving odds of a piece against a lower rated opponent. |
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Jan-14-05
 | | samvega: Looks like you mistyped a couple moves at the beginning. Perhaps you could post a correction, as I'm not quite certain what the intended moves were. In any case, what about 11..fxg5 12.hg+ Kg8 13.g6, threatening 14.Rh8+ Kxh8 15.Qh5+ etc? I don't see the escape route . . . |
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| Jan-14-05 | | Milo: Sam, 13...Rf6, maybe? I should try the comp on it. |
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| Jan-14-05 | | Minor Piece Activity: samvvega: Perhaps 13...Bg5 with the idea of Bh6? |
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| Jan-14-05 | | mdz: On 11...fxg5 12.hg+ Kg8 Alekhine would have played 13.Rh8+ Kxh8 14. Qh5+ Kg8 15. g6 with mate in 2. Sorry, Alekhine was not a patzer. |
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| Jan-14-05 | | Minor Piece Activity: Ah, I see you erased your previous post. I looked at the line you just posted and am not convinced that Alekhine wins after 13...Kf7. I agree with patzer2 that the sac was not sound (although that wouldn't have kept me from playing it =) |
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| Jan-15-05 | | patzer2: <Samvega> Thanks for letting me know about the typos (I mistyped move 13). The corrected post is below (with the correct 13. hxg5+ Rf5): "Not all of Alekhine's sacrifices were sound. In this case, after the demolition sacrifice 10. Bxh7+?! Kxh7 11. Ng5+, Black can obtain a winning advantage with 11...fxg5! Play might continue 11...fxg5! 12. Qh5+ Kg8 <13. hxg5 Rf5> 14. f4 Bxg5 15. Qh8+ Kf7 16. Qh5+ Ke7 17. g4 Rf7 18. Qxg5+ Kd7 19. Qg6 Rxf4 20. Rh7 Ne7 21. Rxg7 Qe8 22. Qg5 Rf7 23. Rxf7 Qxf7 24. 0-0-0 b6 with a winning advantage for Black." <Samvega> <what about 11..fxg5 12.hg+ Kg8 13.g6, threatening 14.Rh8+ Kxh8 15.Qh5+ etc? I don't see the escape route . . . > Black escapes with a winning advantage after <Minor Piece Activity>'s 13...Bg5 (e.g. 13...Bg5 14. Rh8+?? Kxh8 15. Qh5+ Bh6 ) or 13...Rf5 (e.g. 13...Rf5 14. Qg4 Bg5 ). <mdz> After <11...fxg5 12.hxg5+ Kg8 Alekhine would have played 13.Rh8+>, Black plays 13...Kf7! (not <13... Kxh8 14. Qh5+ Kg8 15. g6> when, as you noted, White mates after 15...Rf5 16. Qh7+ Kf8 17. Qh8#) and Black escapes with a winning advantage. After 11...fxg5 12.hxg5+ Kg8 13.Rh8+ Kf7!, play might continue 14. Qh5+ g6 15. Qh7+ Ke8 16. Rxf8+ Kxf8 17. 0-0-0 (17. Qxg6 Nxd4 18. 0-0-0 Nf5 19. Rh1 Bxg5+ 20. Kb1 Bh6 ) 17...Bxg5+ 18. Kb1 Qe8 19. Rd3 Nxd4 20. Rxd4 Qf7 21. Qh8+ Qg8 . Indeed <Alekhine was not a patzer>, but that does not mean he was above making dubious (dare I say unsound) speculative sacrfices, such as 10. Bxh7+?!, against weaker opponents. Afterall, giving odds of a piece, or even a Queen, was not unusual during Alekhine's life time. So the lesson for me is to be wary of "brilliant sacrifices" in the games of the old masters against obviously much weaker opponents. |
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| Jan-15-05 | | mdz: I'm not convinced. White has 17.f4 (instead of 0-0-0). After 17...Nxd4 18.0-0-0 Bc5 19.Na4 Ne2+ 20.Kb1 Qe7 21.Qh8+ Kf7 22.Rh1 Qf8 23.Qf6+ Ke8 24.Rh8 white is winning. |
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| Jan-15-05 | | mdz: To be fair, black does have a draw here, if he plays with precision: 17.f4 Qe8 (both Nxd4 and Bb4 seem to loose), after which white must take the draw by repetition. |
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| Jan-15-05 | | patzer2: <mdz> Excellent piece of analysis on 11...fxg5 12.hxg5+ Kg8 13.Rh8+ Kf7!, 14. Qh5+ g6 15. Qh7+ Ke8 16. Rxf8+ Kxf8 17. f4! Qe8! = Your analysis showing the forced draw in this line looks good. I looked at other options for Black and can find nothing better. So unless someone can find more for Black in this line, it appears Alekhine's sacrfice was sound, giving him excellent winning chances with a draw in hand. P.S. I'm reversing the assessment in my game collections to reflect your analysis. The depth and complexity of Aleknine's combinations and opening preparations are truly amazing. |
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| Jan-15-05 | | Calli: This game was part of a simultaneous exhibition on 29 August 1933 in Washington, DC. Alekhine played 28 boards including two blindfold. He emerged with 27 wins and only one loss. The analysis here is interesting and agree that there is enough intiative to justify the sac. However, even if it isn't quite right, lets give GMs a break in simuls. Not every sacrifice in those circumstances will be 100% correct. |
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| Jan-15-05 | | Minor Piece Activity: Hmmm the more I look at it the more sound the sacrifice looks. But note that Black doesn't have to accept the perpetual with 17...Qe8. Instead 17. f4 Ke8 18. Qxg5+ Kd7 19. o-o-o Qe8 20. Qd3 Nb4 which is unclear and very interesting, should lead to a good fight. White will try to push with g6 and g4 and invade on the h file while black untangles with c6, Kc7, and tries to exchange extra piece at a good time for advantage. |
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| Jan-15-05 | | Minor Piece Activity: (Well black is up two pieces of course but one of them is compensated by white's extra pawns.) |
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| Jan-15-05 | | Minor Piece Activity: Earlier 17. f4 Nxd4 looks possible too and winning for black. (Qxg5 Bb4) But I agree with Calli that it wouldn't be fair to criticize Alekhine for Bxh7+ since he was playing for practical chances. |
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| Jan-16-05 | | Calli: FYI: The one loss at this simul was a very well played game by his opponent. See Alekhine vs L Jones, 1933 |
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| Jan-16-05 | | mdz: Thank you, <patzer2>. I'm now in full agreement with you about this game. I hope you took my little pun with good humor :) I like your thorough approach to game analysis. <Minor Piece Activity>, you say "17. f4 Nxd4 looks possible too...", yet you don't offer any alternative(s) to my analysis of this line indicating W is better (see above). To be sure, 17.f4 Ke8 18.Qxg6+ Kd7 does lead to a lot of crazy lines. W has 19.f5 Nxd4 20.f6 which can be analyzed for days (19...ef 20.e6+ Kd6 21.Nb5 mate!) Probably bad for W 19.0-0-0 Qf8 20.g3 Qf5 and B should win. Another possibility for W may be 19.Nxd5 with draw by repetition after 19...ed. Overall, I'd say, a game full of possibilities :) |
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| Jan-16-05 | | Minor Piece Activity: <yet you don't offer any alternative(s) to my analysis of this line indicating W is better> Sorry, I missed that first post. <17.f4 (instead of 0-0-0). After 17...Nxd4 18.0-0-0 Bc5 19.Na4 Ne2+ 20.Kb1 Qe7 21.Qh8+ Kf7 22.Rh1 Qf8 23.Qf6+ Ke8 24.Rh8 white is winning.> Looks to me very convincing, you are right probably. I missed the power of 22. Rh1. I'm not too sure white can make progress after 17. f4 Ne7 instead though. For example, 18. o-o-o Kd7 19. f5!? gxf5 20. g6 Qe8 20. g7 Bxg7 21. Qxg7 Qg6 and black is in little danger. I'm not sure why I suggested Nxd4? which is more dangerous. This might not be relevant though because I think I found a forced draw after the line we discusssed earlier 16. Rxf8+ Kxf8 17. Qxg6+ (why delay with f4 and such?) Kd7 18. Nxd5!? and I see no way for white to escape perpetual with idea of Qf5+. Maybe 18...Nb4!? but looks hard for black to survive. 19. Nf6+ Kc6 20. Qe4+ Kb6 21. c4 c6 22. a3 Na6 23. c5+ Kc7 is hard to defend? Now Qh7 and g6 threats, a draw is likely. |
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| Jan-16-05 | | Minor Piece Activity: In short maybe the sacrifice was sound afterall. ;) |
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| Jan-16-05 | | mdz: Your fingers are too fast :) I guess, you mean 17...Ke8 (not Ne7). If you look at my post above, you'll see 18.Qxg6+ Kd7 discussed. Who'd want to play "18. o-o-o Kd7 19. f5"? You seem to be confused. |
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| Jan-16-05 | | Minor Piece Activity: It seems I spoke too soon because there is a typo. 16. Rxf8 Bxf8 was intended instead of Kxf8. If instead Kxf8, then white can check black until he reaches a similar position where Nxd5 works. |
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| Jan-16-05 | | mdz: Well, 16...Bxf8 is simply weaker than Kxf8, that's why it was not considered. B does not even threaten g5 now, so f4 is not needed, W can play for win with 17.0-0-0 with same variations, but just better. |
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| Jan-16-05 | | mdz: Anyway, back to the main line: 11...fxg5 12.hxg5+ Kg8 13.Rh8+ Kf7 14.Qh5+ g6 15. Qh7+ Ke8 16.Rxf8+ Kxf8 17.f4 Ke8 18.Qxg6+ Kd7 19.f5 Nxd4 20.f6. Here are just some of many crazy lines: 20...Bc5 21.Qh7+ Kc6 22.0-0-0 Bd7 23.Qd3 a6 24.Na4 Ba7 25.c3 Nb5 26.c4 dc 27. Qe4 mate! Or 22…Nf5 23.g4 Ne3 23.Rh1 Nc4 24.g6 Nxe5 25.g7 Bd7 26.Ne4 Bd4 27.g5 Qe8 29.Rd1 Bb6 30.Kb1 and everything is still hanging by a thread 20 moves after a sacrifice! |
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| Jan-16-05 | | Minor Piece Activity: Hmmm it seems some of the confusion was over which response to choose: Kxf8 or Bxf8 which I was inconsistent about in my analysis so you got confused. Sorry about that. :) I'll stick with Kxf8 starting now since Bxf8 seems to allow more white tricks. (note that your line isn't the refutation though. 17.o-o-o allows for 17... Qxg5+ 18. Kb1 Bd7 We'll go back to the main line in patzer2's post and start over. 17. f4 Bb4 (better than my old suggestion of Ke8) 18. Qxg6+ Qe7 looks good for black. |
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| Jan-16-05 | | patzer2: <Minor Piece Activity> You may be right about 17. f4 Nxd4 possibly winning. I have looked at it several times, and it was so close between a loss or a draw for White that I'm frankly still unsure of the assessment. My best guess at this point is that White can walk this tight rope and hold the draw with very accurate play, but I'm far from certain. Anyway, here's the result of my analysis (best guess so far) of this line (17. f4 Nxd4) with Fritz 8: 11...fxg5 12.hxg5+ Kg8 13.Rh8+ Kf7! 14. Qh5+ g6 15. Qh7+ Ke8 16. Rxf8+ Kxf8 17. f4 Nxd4 18. 0-0-0 Nf5 19. Rh1 Ke8 20. g4 Nd4 21. Qg7 Kd7 22. Rh8 Qxh8 23. Qxh8 b6 24. Qh7 Bb7 25. f5 exf5 26. gxf5 Nxf5 27. Ne2 Rf8 28. Nf4 Ng7 29. Qxg6 Rxf4 30. Qxg7 d4 31. g6 Rf1+ 32. Kd2 Bf3 33. c4 Rf2+ 34. Kd3 c5 35. Qh7 Be2+ 36. Ke4 Bxc4 37. g7 Re2+ 38. Kf4 Bd5 39. Qh3+ Kc7 40. Qh7 Rf2+ 41. Kg3 Rg2 42. Kh3 Rg1 43. g8Q Rxg8 44. Qxe7+ = Note: If you follow this line with a computer, the assessment changes from won for Black to equal (and vice versa) several times. |
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| Jan-16-05 | | Minor Piece Activity: <patzer2> We later dismissed 17. f4 Nxd4 as too dangerous, your machine seems to agree it's hard to call. What do you and mdz think instead about 17. f4 Bb4? I don't see how white can make progress. For example, 17. f4 Bb4 18. Qxg6+ Qe7 is my suggestion. Now if 17.o-o-o, 17...Bd7! 18. Nb5 Ba5 and black looks to be winning. |
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Later Kibitzing> |
Kibitzing
sac: 10.Bxh7+