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Berthold Englisch vs Isidor Gunsberg
Hamburg (1885), Hamburg GER, rd 4, Jul-15
Queen's Gambit Declined: Traditional Variation (D30)  ·  1/2-1/2

ANALYSIS [x]

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Kibitzer's Corner
< Earlier Kibitzing  · PAGE 4 OF 4 ·  Later Kibitzing>
Apr-09-10  JG27Pyth: Epic Fail! I failed to read the board correctly and thus failed to solve the easy position that the 19th century masters failed on.

As a consolation prize, I think the position I worked on is a lot more interesting: suppose the pawns are going the other way (Black is playing from the bottom) ... My analysis was that the position is drawn and I found what think is an elegant clear drawing line for White, who otherwise is in some trouble I think... anyone think White still has better? What's White's best move in that position?

Also, feel free to imagine my horror when I checked the text, since from perspective the text Rxa6 was a jaw-dropping horrific blunder allowing ...Rg6+ winning a rook.

For additional value, you may also consider my relief at not posting my original kibitz, which included wondering why no one else had noticed the blunder...

Epic Fail Friday brought to you this week by JG27Pyth *bows deeply tumbling head first into orchestra pit*

Apr-09-10
Premium Chessgames Member
  Jimfromprovidence: Speaking of the missed forced mate at move 63 for white, notice how on the previous move black moved the wrong rook to the 2nd rank.

If he had played 62...Ra2 instead, then 63 Kh6 does no good, because black has 63...Rxg2, below, covering the threats at both a8 and g7.


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Apr-09-10  howlwolf: It looks like there are lots of ways to win this one. I chose 65Rd8+ Rg8 66Rd7 now black can play . . .Rf8+ 67Kg5 Rg8+ 69Kh6 R on g8 moves to prevent the mate on h7 70Ra8+ Rg8 and 71 Rh7mate. If black chooses not to check the white king 65 Rd8+ Rg8 66Rd7 R move anywhere on the g file 67Rh7+ Kg8 Rh1 and black cannot prevent Ra8 mate.
Apr-09-10
Premium Chessgames Member
  whiteshark: Good point <Jimfromprovidence>! So it's a new add to the never ending <wrong rook> story.
Apr-09-10  heizfeld: This is a missed mate in 5!
65.Ra8 Rg8 66.Kf7!-Kh7 67.Rxg8-Rd5 68.Rxh6+ Kxh6 69.Rh8# 1-0
Apr-09-10  tonlliwi: Here is the winning line that I found, forcing most of the way with a few small possible variations, I didn't see this exact line posted yet so here it is mate in 6: <65.Rd8+ Rg8 66.Rd3 Rf8+ 67. Rf7 Rxf7 68. Kxf7 Ra3 69. Rxa3 Kg7 70. Rh3#>
Apr-09-10  Eric Farley: Fine's Basic Chess Endings analyzes this
ending and gives us the winning line. Check the double rook endings section.
Apr-09-10  TheaN: I've been looking at the position after move 62, and it seems White has several ways to mate there as well. Of course, 63.Kh6 is the move, and an obvious one. It's mate in four after 63....Rc8 (forced to avoid Ra8†, 63....Rac5 64.Rg7† identical as main line) 64.Rg7† Kh8 65.Rfg6 creating two mutually unstoppable mate threats.

However, I also enjoy the move sequence, if 63....Rc8, 64.Rg6† Kf8 65.Kh7. That's what I call domination by the king. It's mate after 65....Rc7† 66.Rxc7 and 67.Rg8‡. Still a weird puzzle, so much wins and it's a terrible blunder.

Apr-09-10  DarthStapler: I didn't get it
Apr-09-10  awfulhangover: Comp shows that Ra8+, Rd8+, Rd3, Rd2 all lead to mate in a few moves. All others are draw.
Apr-09-10  TheSlid: Looks like the K sac works:

65.Kg5 Rxg5
66.fxg5...

No way to avoid the mate now for Black.

Apr-09-10
Premium Chessgames Member
  fm avari viraf: It is aptly said so that "There are many roads leading to Rome" & I think, this one is no exception. Black's King is having his last breathe in the coffin waiting for White to nail it and the simplest ways are: 65.Ra8+ Rg8 [if ...Kh7 then 66.Rd7+ Kh6 67.Rh8# ] 66.Kf7 & mate to follow. Even 65.Rd8+ Rg8 66.Rd3 Rf8+ 67.Rf7 Rxf7+ 68.Kxf7 & wins. Sometimes, we do tend to miss such easy tactics OTB due to other factors like time trouble, a player needs only a draw & so on. I personally feel that where there is a win a good player should always win no matter what circumstances one faces.
Apr-09-10  tacticalmonster: 65 Rd8+! Rg8 66 R8d7 Rg1 67 Rh8+ Kg8 68 Rh2 Re5 69 Ra8# 65 Rd8+ Rg8 66 R8d7 Rf8+ 67 Kg6 Rg8+ 68 Kh6 Rb8 69 Rh7+ Kg8 70 Rag7+ Kf8 71 Rh8#
Apr-09-10  A Karpov Fan: got it (there are a few ways to win on a Friday??)
Apr-09-10  YouRang: Well, I found 65.Rd1 which mates pretty quickly. Puzzles on the easy side this week. :-)
Apr-09-10  acgneves: I found a third another mate possibility, that was also the first solution I saw (besides the best line 65. Ra8 and the other 65. Rd1).. that is 65. Rd3, no matter what black does, mate still coming, either by 66. Ra8 (if 65. ..Kg8, then 66.Ra8 Kh7 67.Rd3) or 66. Rh3 and black king has no scape. Is there anything wrong with that? I have no chess program to check it!
Apr-09-10  wals: Rybka 1-cpu: 3071mb hash: depth 13:

Black error :
62...Rc2 (+#4) better Ra2 +2.36, or Rb5 + 2.76.

62...Rc2 63.Kh6 Rc8 64.Rg6+ Kf8 65.Kh7 Rc7+ 66.Rxc7 Rc5 67.Rg8#

Apr-09-10  Eisenheim: its cute how blacks pawns actually hem him in and defend the white king allowing mate. the moves are the obvious Ra8+, but the key move is the decisive 66 Kf7. A stared at this for about 5 minutes candidly until I saw the win, but I never considered the text move.
Apr-09-10  acgneves: Sorry, again... is 65. Rd3 another slower solution? I can´t see any scape for black king!
Apr-09-10  butilikefur: haha 65. Rd1 . lol who could miss that?

does Rd8+ win too?
65. Rd8+ Rg8 66. Rd7 Rf8+ (66...Rg2 67. Rh7+ Kg8 68. Rh6) 67. Kg6

Apr-09-10
Premium Chessgames Member
  wordfunph: endgame makes me sick...now i need to look for Dvoretsky's Endgame Manual. :-0

maybe key move is 65.Ra8+

Apr-09-10  acgneves: 65. Ra8 = Mate in 2

65. Rd1 = Mate in 4 at least

65. Rd3 = Mate in 3 at least, but now i see that black have 2 extra moves sacrificing both rooks, giving Mate in 5, thus being Ra8 both right and best answer

if 65. ..Rh2 66.Rd1#
65. ..Rg1 66.Rh3#
65. ..Kg1 66.Ra8+ Kh7 67.Rh3#
65. ..Rg3 66.Rxg3 Ra3 67.Rxa3 Kg8 68.Ra8 Kh7 69.Rh3#

Apr-09-10  acgneves: Rembembering that with 65.Rd1, black not necessarily have to play 65. ..Ra2, but can sacrifice both rooks, for example 65. ..Rg1 66.Rxg1 Ra1 67.Rxa1 Kg8 68.Ra1 Kh7 69.Rh1#, and it would be just Mate in 5
Apr-09-10
Premium Chessgames Member
  patzer2: For today's Friday puzzle solution, 65. Ra8+! (a move missed in the actual game) leads to a clever endgame win after 65...Rg8 66. Kf7!, because White now has a winning double threat with mate in one to three moves.

The double attack threat after 65.Ra8+! Rg8 66. Kf7! is due to the pinned Rook on g8 and the mate-in-one threat 66...Rxa8 67. Rh6#.

It's mate-in-three after 65. Ra8+! Rg8 66. Kf7! Kh7 67. Rxg8 Ra1 68. Rg7+ Kh8 69. Rh6#.

P.S.: I'm late to the party, but for some reason it only took a few seconds to see the initial 65. Ra8+! Rg8 66. Kf7! double threat.

Apr-09-10  acgneves: With 65.Ra8+ black can play 65. ..Kh7 66.Rd7+ Rg7 67.Rxg7+ Kh6 68.Rh8# Remembering that I´m not criticizing anything, my objective was to find out which line would assure mate in fewer number of moves as possible!
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