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Sep-25-21 | | chesshistoryinterest: I just remembered the other source I used to investigate this some time ago:
"Chess Sparks" by J.H.Ellis (1895) has a chronicle near the back, and on page 154 says "1890 Match at Vienna - Lasker v. Englisch, won by Lasker, 3 to 1, and 1 draw".
Just about every other book I've seen giving Lasker's record says it was +2-0=3. Is there actually any original record giving this latter score?
Be interesting to know which is correct. |
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Sep-25-21
 | | MissScarlett: <For some reason, this item won't come up for me when I search "The Field" in the online British newspaper archive. Do you have a link, or is this subscriber only content?> See Biographer Bistro (kibitz #22027). <Do either of you know what the book by Forster, Negele and Tischbierek on Lasker says on this event? I haven't seen this book.> I have the first English volume, but I am, as they say, temporarily separated from my library. I can't quite recall if I looked at this, but I suspect I have. The book doesn't treat Lasker's career in a step-by-step chronological fashion so this detail may not even be addressed. |
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Sep-25-21 | | chesshistoryinterest: Thanks. I looked at: https://www.britishnewspaperarchive... , but on closer inspection, it looks like a "Findmypast" website requiring a subscription. But it would seem you can search it for free to see if the item you want is there. I didn't find it, so presume they have not entered all issues yet. Your post of kibitz #22027 would also indicate a subscription is required, so thanks for posting the information. I was thinking the Forster, Negele and Tischbierek book was the "ultimate" book on Lasker, but maybe you could be right. |
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Sep-25-21
 | | MissScarlett: The <Field> is there from 1853 until the end of 1911. Searching for text is an imperfect process to say the least. You can access the holdings of all the individual titles using the pull down menu at the bottom of the front page. Of course, it helps to know what/when you're looking for. |
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Sep-25-21 | | chesshistoryinterest: Now I did find it. Lasker had come up as "Laster" and Englisch as "Engliocb". Hmmm. |
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Oct-04-21
 | | MissScarlett: <Do either of you know what the book by Forster, Negele and Tischbierek on Lasker says on this event?> Only that (p.29) Lasker won the match by 3.5-1.5 but not the breakdown of games - the sources given are <DSZ, October 1890, p.311; DWS, 21 December 1890, p.428.> |
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Oct-04-21
 | | keypusher: So have the scores of the missing games come to light? I'm on tenterhooks! |
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Oct-04-21
 | | MissScarlett: I doubt anything has changed since Berthold Englisch (kibitz #44). |
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Oct-05-21 | | chesshistoryinterest: <MissScarlett: Only that (p.29) Lasker won the match by 3.5-1.5 but not the breakdown of games - the sources given are <DSZ, October 1890, p.311; DWS, 21 December 1890, p.428.>> Thanks for that. Given the existence of <Z truth 000000001>'s great find of 30 May 2016 and the great reputation of Forster and Negele, I'm a bit surprised these latter didn't investigate this more, but maybe that wasn't their focus. Maybe <Z truth 000000001> is able to find out more. |
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Oct-05-21 | | Z truth 000000001: Yes, <CHI>, I put it on the back burner, but I'll try to warm it up again soon. . |
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Oct-06-21
 | | MissScarlett: The <DSZ> reference is here (https://play.google.com/books/reade...) but it doesn't, it appears, get us any further. |
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Oct-06-21 | | Z truth 000000001: We need to talk about google play...
Let's start here - why? |
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Oct-06-21
 | | MissScarlett: It works for me. |
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Oct-06-21 | | Z truth 000000001: But, unfortunately, not the rest of the world... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Googl... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Googl... |
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Oct-06-21 | | Z truth 000000001: Anyways, what's wrong with Google Books?
It gives better info on the source, and allows easier referencing to other editions of a cited periodical. |
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Oct-06-21 | | Z truth 000000001: Ta - got some work to do, I'll check back later. Thanks. |
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Oct-06-21
 | | MissScarlett: <Anyways, what's wrong with Google Books?> Not sure, but the buck stops with Mark. Wasn't aware there was any difference in terms of availability. https://books.google.co.uk/books?id... How's this? |
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Oct-18-21 | | Z truth 000000001: Apologies for the dilatory reply - but here's my notes for the <Lasker--Englisch (1890m)> from AS-Z: <
1890-09-21 Allgemeine Sport-Zeitung p1108c3
https://anno.onb.ac.at/cgi-content/... IN THE NEW VIENNA CHESS CLUB (I., Am Hof No. 11, Mezzanine) there is already a lively chess life again, to which the competition that has just started between Messrs B. Englisch and E. Lasker (from Berlin) contributes a lot. Of the five games played, the young Berlin champion won two, the other three remained a draw. IM NEUEN WIENER SCHACHCLUB (I., Am Hof Nr. 11, Mezzanin) herrscht bereits wieder ein reges Schachleben, wozu der soeben im Gange befindliche Wettkampf zwischen den Herren B. Englisch und E. Lasker (aus Berlin) viel beiträgt. Von den gespielten fünf Partien gewann der jugendliche Berliner Meister zwei, die anderen drei blieben unentschieden. ---
1890-10-05 Allgemeine Sport-Zeitung p1177c1
https://anno.onb.ac.at/cgi-content/... THE LITTLE MATCH ENGLISH LASKER, from the President of the “New Vienna Chess Club”, Mr. Alex. Neumann arranged, had taken place under the following conditions: from 14-18. To play one game a day in September, 20 moves an hour; every game won received 7 florins, every draw 5 florins, and every lost game 3 florins as a prize. E. Lasker won the match 3½: 1½. DAS KLEINE MATCH ENGLISCH-LASKER, vom Präsidenten des „Neuen Wiener Schachclub“, Herrn Alex. Neumann arrangirt, hatte unter folgenden Bedingungen stattgefunden: vom 14.—18. September täglich eine Partie zu spielen, 20 Züge in der Stunde; jede gewonnene Partie erhielt 7 fl., jedes Remis 5 fl., jede verlorne 3 fl. als Preis. E. Lasker gewann das Match 3½ : 1½. >
My 2016 find actually has a little more about the games. But the above confirms the prize amounts, and shows that Lasker didn't lose a single game in the five game match (+2 =3 -0) (Plus, I guess we have the location of the Vienna CC as well.)
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Oct-18-21 | | Z truth 000000001: OK, here's an article from the Austrian press mentioning one of the games of the match: <<>\
1890-09-19 Neues Wiener Abendblatt (Tagblatt (Tages-Ausgabe)(?)) p2c3 https://anno.onb.ac.at/cgi-content/... * (Chess match English-Lasker.) On the 14th of d. M. started a match between the Viennese chess master English and the Berlin master Lasker in the clubhouse of the New Vienna Chess Club. The winner is the one who first won five games. So far five games have been played, three of which have been drawn while Mr Lasker has won two. <<The last of the games played so far, the rejected King's Gambit, had already been won for Mr. Englisch when he made a mistake, whereupon Mr. Lasker offered a draw, which was accepted by Mr. Englisch.>> The games themselves were very interesting and there were also a large number of spectators. * (Schachmatch Englisch-Lasker.) Am 14. d. M. begann im Klublokale des Neuen Wiener Schachklubs, wie bereits gemeldet, ein Match zwischen dem Wiener Schachmeister Englisch und dem Berliner Meister Lasker. Sieger ist Derjenige, der zuerst fünf Partien gewonnen hat. Bis jetzt wurden fünf Partien gespielt, von denen drei remis wurden, während Herr Lasker zwei gewann. Die letzte der bis jetzt gespielten Partien, abgelehnles Königsgambit, war schon sür Herrn Englisch gewonnen, als er einen Fehlzug machte, worauf Herr Lasker remis aubot, was von Herrn Englisch angenommen wurde. Die Partien selbst verliefen sehr interessant und es halten sich auch zahlreiche Zuschauer eingefundeu. > > |
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Oct-19-21 | | chesshistoryinterest: <Z truth 000000001> Really great material, thanks very much for posting this.
These being Austrian sources, where the match was played, must be more reliable. Looks convincing. Really great to have this part of Lasker's record sorted. Englisch's mistake in Game 5 would seem to be a blunder of a pawn, according to your 2016 find. One presumes from that 2016 find that therefore Lasker won Games 1 and 4, and drew Games 2, 3, and 5. For what it's worth, I found two other items relating to this in New Zealand newspapers: (1) "New Zealand Mail", 12 December 1890, page 6 https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/n...
"A short match between Herr E. Lasker and Herr B. Englisch was played at Vienna recently, and resulted in a victory for the former, with the score of three wins, one loss, and one draw.-Bradford Observer." [No date given for the "Bradford Observer" source.]
Here the news item says directly that Lasker lost a game. I wonder if the British items garbled Englisch having a won game in Game 5 into an actual win.
(<MissScarlett>, perhaps you might like to check the "Bradford Observer" to see if there is any elaboration of this item there.) (2) Counterbalancing this is the "North Otago Times", 5 February 1897, page 1 https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/n...
giving a list of Lasker's matches up to the 1896/7 Lasker-Steinitz match. There it states the result of the Englisch match being 2 wins and 3 draws. |
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Oct-19-21
 | | keypusher: Thanks for all this. I still can't believe no one printed the game scores. |
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Oct-19-21 | | chesshistoryinterest: You would think they must be squirreled away somewhere.
It appears the match was arranged at short notice, on Lasker's return journey from the tournament at Graz where Lasker had not done too well. With Lasker being only an emerging player at this stage, perhaps they weren't overly interested (especially as their guy lost, not winning one game). <MissScarlett's> list of missing Lasker games does indicate a number of other unpublished Lasker games around this period. |
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Jan-08-22 | | Chessist: [Event "Match Lasker-Englisch +2-0=3"]
[Site "Vienna"]
[Date "1890.09.14"]
[Round "1"]
[White "Englisch, Berthold"]
[Black "Lasker, Emanuel"]
[Result "0-1"]
[ECO "D52"]
[PlyCount "82"]
[EventDate "1890.09.14"]
[EventType "match"]
[EventRounds "5"]
[EventCountry "AUT"]
1. d4 d5 2. c4 e6 3. Nc3 Nf6 4. Nf3 Nbd7 5. Bg5 c6 6. e3 Bd6 7. Bd3 O-O 8. O-O
Re8 9. Rc1 Nf8 10. e4 dxe4 11. Nxe4 Be7 12. Re1 Nxe4 13. Bxe7 Nxf2 14. Bxd8
Nxd1 15. Bc7 Nxb2 16. Bf1 c5 17. Rc3 Na4 18. Ra3 Bd7 19. Ne5 Rec8 20. Bd6 Be8
21. Rb1 b6 22. d5 exd5 23. cxd5 a6 24. Bxf8 Kxf8 25. d6 Rd8 26. d7 Rxd7 27.
Nxd7+ Bxd7 28. Bd3 b5 29. Bc2 Nb6 30. Rd1 b4 31. Ra5 Bb5 32. Bb3 c4 33. Rd6
cxb3 34. axb3 Rb8 35. Rd4 Re8 36. Rxb4 Re1+ 37. Kf2 Rf1+ 38. Kg3 Rb1 39. Ra3
Nd5 40. Rd4 Ne3 41. Ra2 Nf5+ 0-1
Source: Schach 8/2021, pp. 59-60. |
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Jan-08-22
 | | MissScarlett: Englisch vs Lasker, 1890 |
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Jul-01-22 | | chesshistoryinterest: <Chessist>
A really great find, much thanks to you for posting this.Did "Schach" magazine give what their source was? |
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