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Aug-26-10 | | Arthur.J.Fizelbotom: There's an interesting section in the book "Rethinking the Chess Pieces" by Soltis (Batsford, 2004) that deals with giving up the queen for several minor pieces and a few pawns. I don't have it in front of me, so someone with access may want to verify, but if I remember correctly, if the player giving up the queen has at least 3 minor pieces (better 4) and the initiative, plus postitional advantages, then it is considered sound to give up the queen for a few minor pieces+pawns. So I'm not sure in this game it's really considered a "sac", but I guess that depends on one's definition. |
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Aug-26-10 | | Once: <Arthur.J.Fizelbotom> This is the introduction to chapter 8: "Queens versus pieces" of Rethinking the Chess Pieces by Soltis "When a player gives up - or is forced to give up - his queen for enemy pieces, it sets up a battle between two principles: cooperation versus double attack. In the most general terms, the pieces have the edge if they coordinate well and find targets. The queen has the edge if it can use checks and forks - that is, to do what a queen does best." |
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Aug-26-10 | | Rookey: Giving up the queen for lesser valued pieces, even when gettin a couple of them, seems a blunder for the beginner, and still looks like a risky sacrifice for the average player, so I had to think about it for a while. I've come to he conclusion that the queenless side has one lasting advantage: the oponents Queen is nice, but it can do nothing. Moreover, in its uniqueness it is now vulnerable like the king - the only piece it could have been traded against, besides both rooks, is gone. If this advantage comes together with an even slight initiative, positional progress can be made by the queenless player, whereas the one with the big, strong, valuable and ... <vulnerable> Queen can only watch how things start to boil on the board, since he can not really impose any thread when instead he has to protect the queen from the oponents minor pieces. |
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Aug-26-10
 | | perfidious: For those in this thread who have speculated that a top GM can play so much better in rapid play than a 2200 at a normal time control, I'm curious: how, exactly, do you know all this? For my money, this whole line of thinking is rubbish; I've played blitz with a number of strong GMs, even beaten a few in the 2550-2600 range, and to assert that someone with a 2700 FIDE rating is so much stronger is laughable. Till you all can actually come up with something resembling proof of this, I'll bust a gut laughing. |
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Aug-26-10 | | Jim Bartle: Can we take Kasparov as an example of a top GM, or is that unfair? In any case, he played any number of clock simuls against strong teams from various nations, teams filled with IMs and lower-ranked GMs. He played either four or six games, I believe. These events effectively created the conditions you suggested, perfidious: a top GM playing at rapid time controls and the opponents at normal time controls. Kasparov easily won most if not all of these matches. Now maybe he's an exception, far better than other 2700+ GMs, but it does give one example. |
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Aug-26-10 | | hedgeh0g: 2700+ players have incredible board sight, which enables them to spot a lot of plans and tactics very quickly, whereas lower-rated players need time to assess the position, take stock of all the pieces and threats, etc. Top players managing to churn out the best moves, despite being under severe time pressure, serves as an example of this. I have little doubt that a player like Nakamura could beat a 2200 player 9 times out of 10 with a 1:10 time ratio. |
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Aug-26-10
 | | HeMateMe: The person giving up the Queen can lose these games, too. There is a game Kasparov/Anand, where GK swaps his Queen for 3 minors and loses. Its in Anand's "Best Games" book. |
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Aug-26-10 | | gmalino: just wondering why <rapidcitychess>is using <once's> old avatar..... from my point of view the "sac" only works in a blitz game. move 13, c'mon, that can't resist analysis, even it's kasparov. but very, very impressive and maybe not so unusal for blitzing.... I, personally, am just a patzer and therefore hate games under 15 min time per player. just needing this time to play halfway patzer-free. |
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Aug-26-10
 | | perfidious: <Hedgehog> In 1988, I got to play a set of games with Tal at 5:2 and managed to score 5/11. This was just after he'd won the world blitz championship. |
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Aug-26-10 | | Jim Bartle: Perfidious: Take a look at these games: Game Collection: Kasparov's super simuls Kasparov had a fourth to a sixth as much as time as players generally rated over 2400, yet scored decisive victories in every match. |
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Aug-26-10 | | Julian713: <Rookey>: The key to winning a game when your opponent has sacrificed his queen in such a manner (or any positional/tactical sacrifice like that, such as a rook for a knight/bishop) is to immediately bring your new strengths into play. That is, if your opponent gives up his queen for two minors and a pawn, the way Kasparov did, you ought to immediately bring your queen to a centrally developed position. Without a queen, your opponent will be forced to set up longer chains of defense for individual pieces, rather than having a queen that can immediately protect any piece that needs it. And in a good position like that, your queen is poised for a counterattack that your opponent may not be able to stop because it is costing him too much tactical planning to develop an attack. The queen's advantage is maneuverability and speed; so if your opponent sacrifices that for initiative, you now have that advantage over him during the process of defending against whatever attack he's planning. In the case of sacrificing a rook for a minor piece, you ought to link up your rooks ASAP, since that is the major advantage you gain against a player who only has one rook left when you still have two. If he sacrifices a minor piece for a pawn, you ought to bring a minor piece into instant defense of whatever file/square he just opened up. That way if he starts to bring his own non-pawn pieces into play, you can (theoretically) maintain an advantage in army size at the point of attack. To me, that is what makes Kasparov's sacrifice in this game so brilliant... not necessarily brilliant in conception, but certainly brilliant in execution. He may or may not have known exactly what he was doing, but by God he made it work. He was willing to sacrifice his queen for minor pieces/pawns AND the placement of his knights in the front center...because by doing so, he negated the maneuverability advantage of Kramnik's queen. The key to the sacrifice, and any sacrifice, is being able to use your tactical advantage to overcome your strategical disadvantage. In this case, Kasparov's tactically placed knights overcame the strategical disadvantage of not having the speedy, maneuverable queen. For any fellow Civil War buffs, this game reminds me a great deal of the Battle of Chancellorsville :D |
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Aug-26-10 | | Julian713: <Perfidious: In 1988, I got to play a set of games with Tal at 5:2 and managed to score 5/11. This was just after he'd won the world blitz championship.> It seems hypocritical to demand proof of numerical facts (like game outcomes) while at the same time providing mere anecdotes in return. |
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Aug-26-10 | | SuperPatzer77: After 39...Nf4+!, White resigns in lieu of 40. Kf1 g2+, 41. Kf2 Re1!  SuperPatzer77 |
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Aug-26-10 | | thegoodanarchist: <gmalino: just wondering why <rapidcitychess>is using <once's> old avatar....> you have too much time on your hands! :) |
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Aug-26-10 | | rapidcitychess: <just wondering why <rapidcitychess>is using <once's> old avatar.....> I was because I was imitating him but I changed because I doesn't fit. Unless 5 people like it and say so on my forum that this is my avatar.
<you have too much time>
Nonsense! Worrying about me is important. :) |
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Aug-26-10 | | rapidcitychess: <I have little doubt that a player like Nakamura could beat a 2200 player 9 times out of 10 with a 1:10 time ratio.>
< Nobody can beat me 1 0 OTB> --Nakamura
He apparently has no doubts. |
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Aug-26-10 | | falso contacto: great explanation, julian. |
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Aug-27-10
 | | perfidious: <Julian713> 'Demand'? Really? I did state that I was curious, yet you turn things round to fit your need to put down someone else. As to what you term a 'mere anecdote', you're just jealous and would likely have killed to have that opportunity. Have a nice life. |
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Jan-28-11 | | TheOutsider: Doesn't Ndb2 or even f3 refute black's entire plans at once? Oh right,Kramnik actually thought he would get to keep his rook :) |
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May-22-11 | | SMCB1997: Wow! What a game! I was not expecting that queen sack from Kasparov. I'm not highly rated enough to say why he did it, but I'm sure it was for the best :-) hehe. |
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Jul-17-11 | | Rook e2: bubuli55: 14.Bxc7 would have been my move. Just saying :) That's what I was thinking. But it's not as good anymore after ..Nxd1 Raxd1 Ra6 |
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Sep-29-11 | | DrMAL: <hedgeh0g: I have little doubt that a player like Nakamura could beat a 2200 player 9 times out of 10 with a 1:10 time ratio.> I can personally vouch for that regarding H-bomb and I am not a 2200 player (and he would not to cheat LOL). Note ELO is based on Gaussian curve and a 2700 player is several standard deviation multiples away from 2200, each is a true anomaly. It makes watching their play all the more fascinating, how they think, we are lucky today there are so many of them. This simple population fact is one that Chessmetrics refuses to admit with its "rating inflation" BS, fact is that because of much larger population seriously playing the "inflation" comes right out of population growth. Knowledge growth is another key factor. Also, real (FIDE) 2200 is much stronger than USCF 2200 the latter uses logistics curve instead of correct Gaussian curve and it has a bias due to "rating floor" garbage. "Life master" is nonsense one must keep up with chess to prove it over lifetime, ability wanes with age. In his "My Story" video super-genius Kasparov pulls rank on mere genius Plaskett by saying no-one but he and Karpov fully knew what was going on in their match. Although arrogant he is at least partially correct and Plaskett cedes his point. Brilliant people realize there are others above them and show humility to it, whereas average people are often clueless or jealous. <Marmot PFL: Was this a one shot sac or does it actually hold up to analysis?> Back to this fabulous game, it's a provocative sac in that it evaluates objectively to about half a pawn in white's favor and as such is not 100% sound. However, it is easy to make inaccuracies, 15.Rc1 being the first, that quickly add up for black. After 15...Nxa2 black evaluates about half a pawn ahead (think it's the right half). Wish I had seen this game live! That was a long post, hope it was entertaining LOL. |
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Sep-30-11 | | SimonWebbsTiger: @<DrMal>
The discussion about the numbers of players and "inflation" reminded me of something I read a while ago on <chessbase> by Jeff Sonas. Have you seen it? http://www.chessbase.com/newsdetail...
Apropos humility, our "Great Dane" Peter Heine Nielsen is a first class example. Here is a man who seconds Anand, is in the 2650-2700 ELO bracket and just scored a terrific result at the recent FIDE World Cup (beating Adams and some others before losing out to Gashimov). A wonderful CV. When he talks about the 2700+ GMs, he says they can see and can more than he! This is the strongest Dane since Bent Larsen, don't forget; I always think this puts the achievements and ability of elite GMs in perspective. |
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Sep-30-11 | | visayanbraindoctor: I think the phenomenon of inflation does exist. In this era's quasi-equilibrium group, a 2700 player can see more than a 2600- he can usually calculate more variations faster. So GM Nielsen is correct, on the condition he is speaking of the masters of his own era. GM Bent Larsen may have been a 2600s player in his era in the late 1960s, but I have no doubt he would be 2700s in this era; his games indicate he was calculating more variations faster than even many of today's 2700s. Ratings do not measure chess strength. They are mere descriptors and predictors of chess players' performances in the near past and near future in the same quasi-equilibrium group. If all of today's 2700 players were to suddenly play like patzers, but retain their relative strengths to each other and play no one else outside their group, they may retain their 2700 ratings, but they will still be playing like patzers. The best measure of a player's absolute chess strength is by analysis of his games. If he plays very many games with very little errors, this guy must be a strong chess player. |
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Sep-30-11 | | SimonWebbsTiger: @<visayanbraindoctor> that reminds me of a tourney in Denmark 20 years ago. A really old guy was playing; he had an ELO of about 2400-2450. He lost some games, drew some and won a scintillating brilliancy. The 2600 GMs had a reverance for this 2400 "guy", despite their higher ratings and the old guy not being a pro player. The old guy was David Bronstein. |
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