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| Jul-12-05 | | The beginner: Not that easy, at least not for me :(
It looks equal after
27 Rf7+ ..Qxf7
28 Ng5+ ..Kg8
29 Nxf7 ..Kxf7
30 Qxg4 .. Nf6
White is up a pawn, but he will soon lose a pawn here. 31 Qf3 trying to defend the d pawn
32 .. Rxc2
Material is equal now, and i dont see any easy wins for white
one idea is
32 Bg5, but it is easely parried with
32 ..Be7
Or if white tryes
31 Qd1 Covering c and d pawn.
31 ..Rc4 black grabs the a or b pawn next move.
Not ecsactly easy to see, if this puzzle is supposed to be that easy there should be more advantage for white :) I thought it was 27 Ng5+ thinking there was something better here, but it seems to be about same. Fritz 8 (13 plies)+1,25
for eather
27 Rf7, Ng5+, or Bg5
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| Jul-12-05 | | melianis: <aginis> How about 30...Rb7 and 31...Nb8 ? In my wiew white has at least a little trouble choosing whether to go for a kingside or queenside attack. I'm not sure if white is winning soon but clearly in advantage. Anyway, white can take the g4 pawn in 31. Or do I miss something obvious? |
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| Jul-12-05 | | The beginner: <Aginis>
Maybe Better is
30 ..b5
31 axb5 ..axb5
32 Bf1 ..Rb7
33 Qxg4 ..Nf6
Fritz 8 (13 plies) +0,97
Fritz like material so it will favor white for the material advantage, but for any normal player its not very easy to see why white has a won game here. This puzzle is way to complicated for thuesday imo :) |
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| Jul-12-05 | | jamesmaskell: I think Rf7+ looks unlikely because you are throwing yourself at the Black queen. It certainly looks like a strange sacrifice. |
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| Jul-12-05 | | The beginner: <Melianis> <Aiginis> 30 Rb7 is not good. I think your idea is to protect a and b pawn with Rook, and knight. 30 ..Rb7
31 Qd3 ..Nb8
32 Be4 Winning at least the g6 pawn, the threat is Bg6+ winning the exchange Rook, for bishop. Black must move eather Rook or king, where after white picks up the g6 pawn, and also blacks king is now very open. |
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| Jul-12-05 | | melianis: <aginis> all right, now I think that 31.Qd3 would have been the winning move. It's just not too usual to fork two pawns with a queen... I would have probably started a queenside attack with 31.c4 Nb8 32.c5... can't see them all :-). |
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| Jul-12-05 | | paul dorion: Actually , the winning move may well be 20 Be3. I suspect that Black saw the knight fork but tought that after 20 Qxg4 he would get conterplay. Q vs Rook,pawn and minor piece is often considered as adequate compensation. Tal Larsen and others used that sacrifice in several games with good results. In the game , Black may have allowed the fork to stop White dangerous attack on the K side. After 20 Be3 black get tied to the defense of it's Qside pawns. 20...a5? accelerates things. The passed a4 pawn wins a piece and the game. |
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| Jul-12-05 | | paul dorion: I meant 30 Be3 and 30....a5 of course |
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Jul-12-05
 | | benveniste: I spent about 15 seconds finding the R-sac/N-fork combo, and about 10 minutes trying to figure out how it wins. I eventually shrugged and said, "that's why I can't play this game" and peeked. While White gains material, if Black can avoid creating a queen-side passed pawn for white, I think there are good chances for a draw. Even after 30 ... a5?, the win took almost perfect play. |
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| Jul-12-05 | | paul dorion: Lasker did sacrifice his Q for R-B-P in his Moscow 1925 game against Ilyin-Zhenevsky and won. The key for the correctness of the sacrifice is the solidity of the pawn structure. It is well known that if the side with the pieces has a solid structure , he even have winning chances. |
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| Jul-12-05 | | patzer2: I ran today's puzzle position (27. ?) on my PC for four hours at 2.0 GHZ to 18/51 depth and 1201 kN/s with the following results (note that it rates 27. Ng5+ equal to 27. Rf7+): Spraggett Kevin (CAN) - Jonathan Berry
2b1rb2/2rnq2k/pp1p2p1/3Pp3/PP2N1p1/5R2/2P2PB1/2BQR1K1 w - - 0 1 Analysis by Fritz 8:
1. ± (1.38): 27.Ng5+ Kg8 28.Rf7 Qxf7 29.Nxf7 Kxf7 30.Qxg4 Nf6 31.Qe2 a5 32.Bg5 axb4 33.Qb5 Bf5 34.Qxb6 2. ± (1.38): 27.Rf7+ Qxf7 28.Ng5+ Kg7 29.Nxf7 Kxf7 30.Qxg4 Nf6 31.Qe2 a5 32.Bg5 axb4 33.Qb5 Bf5 34.Qxb6 3. ± (1.19): 27.Bg5 gxf3 28.Bxe7 Bxe7 29.Qxf3 Kg7 30.Qe3 Bb7 31.Ng5 Bxg5 32.Qxg5 Nf6 33.Qe3 Nxd5 4.  (0.34): 27.Rg3 Nf6 28.Bg5 Bg7 29.f3 Rf8 30.fxg4 Qd7 31.Qd2 Nxe4 32.Bxe4 Kg8 33.Bxg6 Qxa4 34.Be4
5. = (0.25): 27.Ra3 Nf6 28.Bg5 Bg7 29.Qe2 Rf8 30.c4 Rb7 31.Rg3 Qc7 32.Bxf6 Bxf6 33.c5 6. = (0.16): 27.Rb3 Nf6 28.Qd3 Nxe4 29.Bxe4 Qf7 30.Be3 b5 31.axb5 axb5 32.Qxb5 Bf5 33.Bb6 Rb7 34.c4 Bxe4 7. = (-0.22): 27.Rd3 Nf6 28.Bg5 Bg7 29.Rg3 Rf8 30.f4 gxf3 31.Bxf3 Qe8 |
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| Jul-12-05 | | beenthere240: I agree. The puzzle is just to find the deflection into the knight forkl. But a much deeper problem is how to proceed. Grabbing the g pawn is a bad idea, but switching to an attack on the q side is right. |
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| Jul-12-05 | | paul dorion: <Patzer2> Nice work , but I still prefer Spraggett 30 Be3. The g4 pawn will go nowhere (and is a doubled pawn) and is an hindrance to black pieces. Curious that Fritz also gives a line with a passed pawn for White after black rushes to play a5. It is clear that the bishop would do more to support the pawn by being on e3 rather than on the useless g5. |
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| Jul-12-05 | | patzer2: <beenthere240> My personal preference might have been to avoid "grabbing the g pawn" with 30. Qxg4 and instead play 30. Be3 as in the game. However, I don't think it's a mistake, and, as Fritz 8's choice, may indeed be the best move here. White appears to have a won position after 30. Qxg4!? Nf6 31. Qe2! a5 32. Be3 axb4 33. Bxb6 Rc3 34. Qb5 Rxc2 35. Qxb4 Ba6 36. Bf1 Bxf1 37. Kxf1!  ( 1.44 @ 14/45 depth & 1133kN/s). |
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| Jul-12-05 | | YouRang: This one was fairly easy. Again, when a knight is within checking range of a king, you look for ways to force a knight fork. The setup move, Rf7+, then jumps into view. |
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| Jul-12-05 | | notyetagm: The Black queen is the only defender of the f7-square, stopping the royal rook fork ♖f3-f7+. The Black queen is also the only defender of the g5-square, stopping the White e4-knight from checking the Black king. Unfortunately for Black, <the squares f7 and g5 are a knight's move apart from each other>, meaning that the Black queen can defend only one. 27 ♖f7+! <deflects> the Black queen from defending the g5-forking square and simultaneously <decoys> her on to the f7-square, where she becomes the second target for the knight fork 28 ♘g5+, winning queen for rook and knight. 27 ♖f7+!, a very nice <decoy/deflection into a knight fork>. |
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| Jul-12-05 | | aginis: i'm glad to have initiated such heated discussion and i think that <thebeginner> is definetly onto something with 31.Qd3 followed by 32.Be4 ironically in his own analysis he suggests <30 ..b5
31 axb5 ..axb5
32 Bf1 ..Rb7
33 Qxg4 ..Nf6 >
while 32.Qd3 will again serve admirably.
<patzer2> i tend to distrust computer analysis of subtle positions like this.
the computer must use an algorithim to rate positions (to see each position for 15 half moves is approximately 10^20 positions; at a rate of a billion positions per second thats a thousand years)
in a position were 4 or 5 moves down the road it needs to decide which pawn to win it will favor taking a pawn immediately over taking one a few moves later because it will never even analyse the reprecussions of 30.Be3. however i'm curious what evaluations fritz will give after 29...Kxf7, 30.Be3 and 30.Qxg4 |
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| Jul-12-05 | | ajile: I thought that the move was NG5+ first since next move White invades the 7th with RF7. This looks extremely dangerous for Black. After 27.NG5+ KG8 28.RF7 QD8 29. QXg4 NF6 30. QH4 threatens RXN. I don't have my chess set handy so hard to see what happens after 30...RE7. |
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| Jul-12-05 | | The beginner: <Aiginis>
White can play 32 Qd3 or Bf1 it makes not much diference in the .. 30b5 line(Actually Bf1 is better because it threatens pawn on b5, while the queen is still threatening pawn on g4).
The point here is to threaten b5. In this line white cant follow up Qd3 with Be4 with the same idea as in the 31 Rb7 line i gave above, because black can play Nf6 covering the e4 square. 30 ..b5
31 axb5 ..axb5
32 Qd3 ..Nf6
33 Be4? ..Nxe4
34 Qxe4 ..Bf5
35 Qh1, or Qg2 (forced) ..Bg7
Here black has at least a draw, or more likely winning chances. Material is equal, black has the tempo, bishop has target pawn on c2. White's pieces are pointing no where, and his pawn on c2 is soon to go off the board, he has no connected pawns, the queen has no good squares to move to. |
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| Jul-12-05 | | paul dorion: <ajile> after 29 Qd3 look better than Qxg4 and after the forced 29 ...e4 30 Rxe4 black loses material fast to stop Qxg6+ Anyway Ng5+ and Rf7 are not really an independant branch because black can play Qxf7 transposing into the game. |
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| Jul-12-05 | | paul dorion: <The beginner> after 30 Be3 b5
31 axb5 axb5
32 Qd3 Nf6
33 Qxb5 Rxc2
34 Ra1 white will have a nice position.
Forget about K side attack by White , getting a passed pawn on the qside and opening up the position for the queen and rook will win the game. |
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| Jul-12-05 | | The beginner: <Paul dorion>
Yes you are right, my analys was only to point out why the idea Qd3 Be4 wont work in this variation. As it would have done, if black had played the variation i gave above why 30.. Rb7 followed by Nb8 is really bad. We where seeking for a better move than 30..a5, not sure if b5 is better, proberly not. The whole point of the discusion was that the puzzle seems a bit hard for thuesday, as if there is a win for white it is many moves ahead. Capturing the queen for R,N and pawn is not really a win. Unless the one who solve the puzzle can see a clear win i would not call it to solve the puzzle. |
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| Jul-12-05 | | paul dorion: <the beginner> A plan would be 30...Rc4 followed by Bb7 and possibly Rec8. If white can be forced to play c4 then it may have to sacrifice a pawn on the queenside to break trough, On b7 and d7 , the B and N are protecting some valuable squares. With a closed position , the W queen may be difficult to activate. I think that white is on top but still have to win the game. You are right that this puzzle is wrong, the superior side should always emerge with a clear win at the end of solution. |
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| Jul-12-05 | | paul dorion: Black should avoid at all cost letting white get a passed pawn and simplify. |
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| Jul-12-05 | | The beginner: <Paul Dorion>
I dont think Rc4 leads anywhere for black eather, as black will never get time to play Bb7 nor Rec8, if white goes on with the idea Qd3 Be4. 30.. Rc4
31 Qd3 ..Rxb4
32 Be4
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Kibitzing
sac: 27.Rf7+