|
< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 2 OF 2 ·
Later Kibitzing> |
Feb-05-21
 | | al wazir: Black might have done better to keep the ♕: 16...Be6 17. Rxa8 Bxe7 18. Rxa7 Bxc5 19. Bxc5 Qxc5 20. Rxb7 Bxa2 21. Rd1 Be6. |
|
| Feb-05-21 | | Walter Glattke: Possible continuation was: 13.Nxc6 Rxd1 14.Raxd1 bxc6 15.Rd8+ Bf8 16.Bxc6 Rb8 17.Bh6 Qg7 18.Bxg7 Kxg7 19.Bd7 one rook for white. Option 14.-Qxe3 15.Rd8+ Bf8 (no Nxe7 now) 16.fxe3 bxc6 17.Bxc6 Bb7 18.Rxa8 Bxa8 19.Bxa8 1 rook. |
|
| Feb-05-21 | | mel gibson: I didn't know what to do.
Stockfish 12 is calling it close to a draw:
13. Nxc6
(13.
Nxc6 (♘d4xc6 ♖d8xd1 ♖a1xd1 ♗g7-f8 ♖d1-b1 h7-h5 ♖f1-c1 ♕c3-f6 ♘c6-b4 h5-h4
♘b4-d5 ♕f6-e5 ♘d5-f4 ♕e5-c7 g3xh4 e7-e6 ♖b1-b5 ♖a8-b8 c5-c6 b7-b6 ♖b5-g5
♗f8-e7 ♖g5-g4 ♔g8-h7 ♗g2-e4 ♗e7-d6 h4-h5 f7-f5 h5xg6+ ♔h7-g8 ♘f4-d5 ♗d6xh2+
♔g1-h1 e6xd5 ♗e4xd5+ ♔g8-g7 ♖g4-h4 ♕c7-d8 ♖h4-h7+ ♔g7xg6 ♖h7-h6+ ♔g6-g7
♔h1xh2 ♕d8xd5 ♖c1-g1+ ♔g7-f7 ♖h6-h7+ ♔f7-e8 ♗e3-f4) +0.54/39 190) score for White +0.54 depth 39 |
|
| Feb-05-21 | | Brenin: The N on d4 is pinned and under-defended, while Black's back rank is weak, so 13 Nxc6 is an obvious solution, and it's just a matter of checking that White comes out best (if only marginally in some cases) against all Black's responses. With White's R on d8 and B on the a8-h1 diagonal, the B and R stuck on c8 and a8 are going cripple Black's efforts. |
|
Feb-05-21
 | | ajk68: I'm not seeing the advantage of Nxc6 - not enough to make it a puzzle. |
|
| Feb-05-21 | | Brenin: <ajk68>: The advantage of Nxc6 is that White doesn't lose a piece: without this combination the N on d4 is doomed, e.g. 13 Bxc6 bxc6 14 Rc1 Qb2 15 Rc4 Ba6 is horrible for White. A puzzle doesn't always have to lead to a clear win. |
|
| Feb-05-21 | | goodevans: <ajk68: I'm not seeing the advantage of Nxc6 - not enough to make it a puzzle.> CG puzzles aren't always to find a win. They're to find the best move. I was struggling with this one to start with until I stopped looking for a win and started looking for mere survival for white. White does, after all, seem to be in dire straits. Other candidates like <13.Rc1> can be quickly dismissed (13.Rc1 loses to 13...Rxd4). At least I can't find one that comes even close to working. That leaves <13.Nxc6> as the only possible solution since it minimises material loss and actually gives white a bit of initiative. Having settled on <13.Nxc6 Rxd1 14.Raxd1> I think it's important to see that black can't win a piece with <14...bxc6> because of <15.Bxc6>, forcing him to give it back (15...Rb8?? 16.Rd8+ Bf8 17.Bh6). Apart from that I'm happy just to have escaped that predicament with a roughly equal position. |
|
| Feb-05-21 | | Brenin: In the game, Black would have been safe with the rather passive 14 ... Bf8 or the more enterprising 14 ... Be6. |
|
| Feb-05-21 | | malt: I had gone with 14...Be6 |
|
Feb-05-21
 | | chrisowen: Lashed it in Nxc6 enough i v damage accustomed it in i lovely muddle a huffle rooftop lashed it in i gadzooks labour bavarian quivver vertice it weakcame mackwent fannyadams o v you jump its fortus v i firsts blagger clammy claw it within totadd fluffs hadoff i v pinecone goodness i v drawish it warpath it monster Nxc6 dug? |
|
Feb-05-21
| | chrisowen: Footloose var? |
|
| Feb-05-21 | | agb2002: Black threatens Nxd4.
The rook on d8 and Black's back rank become defenseless after 13.Nxc6. However, the position is unclear after 13... Rxd1 14.Raxd1 Bf8 (14... bxc6 15.Rd8+ Bf8 16.Bh6 Qg7 17.Bxg7 wins decisive material) because, if 15.Rd8, Black has 15... bxc6 16.Bh6 Bb7. White can win the b-pawn with 15.Nd8 (instead of 15.Rd8) but I'm not sure whether this gives enough compensation. In any case I'd play 13.Nxc6. |
|
Feb-05-21
| | chrisowen: Ghost Nc6 fountain Rxd1 goods are up Raxd1 fingers crossed for Nxe7+ fluffed an drawish a lot onion layer cakefoot and moats off bandjob horse carriage us think bf8 hatchet flesh nc6 church of reason just prepped bf8 an qu in c3 what's the matter no? |
|
| Feb-05-21 | | drollere: clearly, with four black pieces attacking d4 against 2 white defenders, it's a use it or lose it situation with the N. after 13. Nxc6 Rxd1, 14. Raxd1 bxc6, 15. Rd8+ Bf8 white has pinned both of black's B's and is ready for Bxc6. |
|
| Feb-05-21 | | Cellist: I wanted to play Nxc6 but could not see a clear way to a win. SF agrees that there is no win with correct play from Black: 0.00 (33 ply) 13.Nxc6 Rxd1 14.Raxd1 Bf8 15.Nd8 Bf5 16.Nxb7 Rc8 17.c6 Qa3 18.Rd8 Qxa2 19.Rc1 Qxe2 20.c7 Kg7 21.Bf1 Qf3 22.Bg2 Qe2. I briefly considered 13. Rc1 and 13. Nb5, which lose badly. |
|
| Feb-05-21 | | goodevans: <drollere: [...] after 13. Nxc6 Rxd1, 14. Raxd1 bxc6, 15. Rd8+ Bf8 white has pinned both of black's B's and is ready for Bxc6.> It's better to play Bxc6 and Rd8+ in the other order netting a whole piece (see my previous post). Rd8+ first isn't quite so effective: <15.Rd8+ Bf8 16.Bxc6 Qa5> (to protect a7) <17.Re8 Bb7> and now white must choose between <18.Rxa8 Bxc6> and <18.Rxf8+ Kxf8 19.Bxb7>, neither of which is quite as good. |
|
| Feb-05-21 | | dhotts: 12. Be3 was a clever move setting a fantastic trap for Black luring him in with an easy pawn grab and threatened loss of a piece/knight...I hate when I get swindled by easy pawn grabs. |
|
Feb-05-21
| | ajk68: <goodevans: <ajk68: I'm not seeing the advantage of Nxc6 - not enough to make it a puzzle.> CG puzzles aren't always to find a win. They're to find the best move.> In that case, this is a rather obvious puzzle for a Thursday. The move is pretty much forced. Thanks for the insight about CG puzzles, I've been on here for 15 years and never caught on to that. ;-) |
|
| Feb-05-21 | | goodevans: <ajk68> I see we joined within a few months of each other. These white (black) to move and avoid losing are fairly rare but have come around once every few months, or so it feels to me. Likewise the red herrings where it looks like there's a forced win but it's a trap, although in that case I can't remember seeing one of those for simply ages. Sometimes it's pretty obvious like with Kasparov vs N R McDonald, 1986 <54..?> other times less so and you wonder if they really intended you to just avoid the loss or whether the problem setter just made a mistake. Today I'm giving the problem setter the benefit of the doubt. |
|
| Feb-05-21 | | drollere: <Thanks for the insight about CG puzzles, I've been on here for 15 years and never caught on to that.> from the "About Our Puzzles" link (just under the board position on the home page): "What kind of move am I looking for?
"The goal is to find the best move, or sequence of moves, in the given position. "You do not always have to find a checkmate! Just find the best move. "Usually, this move will lead to a superior position, either by a forced sequence of moves which leads to checkmate, or (more commonly) wins substantial material. "By "substantial material" we mean usually winning at least the exchange (i.e. trading a knight or a bishop for a rook). More commonly the winning move will net a whole piece (bishop/knight/rook) and sometimes will win the queen. Occasionally, the material will be only a single pawn--this usually happens in endgame situations where the extra pawn will surely decide the game. "The first move is not always the most difficult move to see. Sometimes, the initial move in the sequence is somewhat obvious, but the real solution to the position lies in the follow-up moves. In order to solve our puzzles, you must see enough moves to demonstrate that the initial move is correct. Simply guessing the first move, without understanding why it works, is not solving the puzzle. "Sometimes we will present a position where the player who is to move is in a nearly hopeless situation. In these positions you are expected to look for a way to draw the game instead of win it. We don't tell you that you are looking for a draw; you are expected to figure this out by the nature of the position." whether practice follows policy is another topic. |
|
| Feb-05-21 | | Honey Blend: Position after 14. ... ♗f8:
click for larger viewNow where should the Knight go? 15. ♘d4 ♕xc5 or 15. ♘d8 ♗f5 both equalize. But White has the clever 15. ♖b1: 
click for larger viewIf 15. ... bxc6, 16. ♗xc6 wins back some material. 
click for larger viewOr 15. ... ♗f5 16. ♖xb7 threatening to grab another pawn on the 7th rank. 
click for larger viewe.g. 16. ... ♕f6 17. ♘xa7 threatening c6. |
|
| Feb-05-21 | | King.Arthur.Brazil: In my short chess career, sometimes I left my ♕ in hands of my opponent, however, they never could capture her, because of sudden check-mate ahead; so they gave up.The site tells that the most common way to refute a sacrifice, is to accept it first. Today, such moves are common for some Tal's-imitators: they move first, think after. I always did my homework before, so only made a move after calculations were reasonable done before.
I saw the movement and considered that, after 13. ♘xc6 ♖xd1 14. ♖axd1, White depends on Black choice: e.g. 14...♗e6 15. ♘xe7+ ♔f8 16. ♘d5 ♕a5... long fight? Considering the capture, the check in the line: 14...bxc6 15. ♖d8+?! ♗f8 16. ♗h6 ♗b7 17. ♖fd1 ♕a5, it is not so good for White. Another move, with: 15. ♗xc6! ♖b8?? 16. ♖d8+ ♗f8 17. ♗h6 and Black is lost. But Black can improve its defense with: 15...♗b7 16. ♗xb7 ♖e8 17. c6 ♕a5 18. ♖d2 ♗e5 19. ♖fd1 ♗c7 20. ♖d7 e6. White would have a good position, if he can scape the ♕ checks atacking his pieces in parallel. See diagram. 
click for larger view |
|
| Feb-05-21 | | RandomVisitor: Others have pointed out that 13.Nxc6 Rxd1 14.Raxd1 Bf8! kind of upends the puzzle and it becomes a computer exercise to see which side has the advantage:
click for larger viewStockfish_21013116_x64_modern:
<50/67 16:54 +0.14 15.Rb1 h5 16.Rfc1 Qf6> 17.Nb4 h4 18.Nd5 Qe5 19.Nf4 a5 20.a4 Bh6 21.c6 bxc6 22.Bxc6 Ra6 23.Rb5 Qd6 24.Rd5 Rxc6 25.Rxd6 Rxc1+ 50/5 16:54 0.00 15.Rd3 Qb2 16.Rd2 Qc3 |
|
| Feb-05-21 | | utssb: reminds me a bit of the tactic that decided Nisipeanu vs Nakamura, 2019 |
|
| Feb-06-21 | | RandomVisitor: After 14...Bf8:
click for larger viewStockfish_21013116_x64_modern:
<69/76 8:08:26 0.00 15.Rb1 h5 16.Rfc1> Qf6 17.Nb4 h4 18.Nd5 Qe5 19.Nf4 a5 20.a4 Bh6 21.c6 bxc6 22.Bxc6 Ra6 23.Rb5 Qd6 24.Rd5 Rxc6 25.Rxd6 Rxc1+ 68/58 8:08:26 0.00 15.Nd8 Bf5 16.Bxb7 Rb8 17.Bf3 e5 18.Nc6 Re8 19.Nxa7 Qa5 20.Nc6 Qa4 21.Bg2 h5 22.h3 h4 23.g4 Be4 24.Bxe4 Qxe4 25.Na7 f5 |
|
 |
|
< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 2 OF 2 ·
Later Kibitzing> |
Kibitzing
sac: 13.Nxc6