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Francesco di Castellvi vs Narciso Vinyoles
"Old in Chess" (game of the day Nov-13-2012)
Valencia (1475), Valencia ESP
Scandinavian Defense: Ilundain Variation (B01)  ·  1-0

ANALYSIS [x]

FEN COPIED

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Kibitzer's Corner
< Earlier Kibitzing  · PAGE 2 OF 14 ·  Later Kibitzing>
Jan-30-04
Premium Chessgames Member
  kevin86: It's ironic to bring up Columbus-we have a neighboring town names Genoa-but pronounced Jen-Oh-ah;and our state capital in Ohio is Columbus.

All right,they didn't sail form Barcelona,by were commissioned from there by King Ferdinand and Queen Isabella-hope I got that right.

Jan-31-04  Lawrence: kevin86, not really but it doesn't matter, "history is bunk" as Henry Ford said. The connection between Columbus and Barcelona is that when he got back to Spain in 1493 Ferdinand and Isabella were holding court there, so that's where Chris went to tell them all about his trip to India.
May-04-04  Blumster: I believe it is called "legall's" mate, not "legal's" mate.
May-07-04  kamran: why the black didn,t consider the next move of the white..therefore he lose tha game . i am not expecting this kind of mistake from a great player.
Jun-13-04  MatrixManNe0: Thankfully, chess has evolved so much... these players (no offense) seem so simple-minded! I saw so many errors it wasn't even funny...

Eh... analysis:

Scandinavian game is not usually preferable... white gains back a tempo after shoving the queen out.

GoodKnight explains how Legall's (?) mate can be acheived at move 6, via 6. Ne5! Bxd1?? 7. Bxf7#.

7... e6? was error, as white wins two pawns.

10. Nxa7 should have been met with 10... Rb8, pushing the queen away and preserving the rook itself.

At least white gets a feel for the sacrificial idea with 15. d5, clearing the way for his bishop.

17... Qe7 would have been better than 17... Qf6. With 17... Qe7, black sets up some resistance.

18... Qg6 was also error, as white plays a cheap trick.

19. Bf4 also gives sacrificial play. Here, black may have been better off taking the g7-pawn with the queen, I guess...

<drunkenknight> 20. Be3 refutes that as well.

Eh... was this like a 1450 vs. a 1000 or something? I'm sorry, but that was just pathetic...

Jun-23-04  zb2cr: I'm not sure about castling. Vladimir Vukovic, in his book <The Art of Attack in Chess>, states tat castling took a while to come about. The 15th-century reforms which changed the "alfil" into a Bishop and the "fers" into a Queen caused the King's position in the center of the battle line to stand out as a defect. To remedy this, castling was introduced--but the modern form of it didn't come about until roughly 300 years later.
Jun-23-04
Premium Chessgames Member
  ray keene: i discussed this game at some length with spanish IM and chess historian ricardo calvo. i was almost nearly present when it was re-enacted with live pieces at a spanish village festival in the late 1980's with kasparov as guest of honor. our car got lost and we arrived in time to see armies of spanish pikemen in renaissance military dress leaving the giant chess board for a refreshing cerveza.calvos theory was that it was in any case a ceremonial game -not a real clash. there is something odd about the names-castelvi implies to me a town dweller-someone living in a fortified town perhaps meeaning castle life-maybe as the etymological root whereas vinoles seems to imply a more rustic rural origin-winegrowers-vino/ vin spanish and french for wine-could it have been a ceremonial game played as a metaphor for the contrast between city dwellers and country dwelling wine growers and vine tenders? whatever-it seems pretty obvious that castling was not a legal move at that time.chess was certainly a popular metaphor as for example in vidas poem scaccia ludus-ludimus effigiem belli simulataque veris- i think it starts...
Jun-23-04
Premium Chessgames Member
  vonKrolock: <ray keene> there's really somewhat strongly simbolical and significant in the couple of names, it cannot be fortuitous... much more verissimilitude (sorry i dont find the english term) i see in the names of the italian knights from the xv-th century Marostica episode: Rinaldo de Angarano e Vieri de Vallonara (and in the name of the 'prize' of that game Madonna Lionara too). The original quatrocento game was not been preserved in this case, and when the municipality of this venetian town started the famous festival whith live Chess performances in 1954, the game selected was Fleissig-Schlechter, Vienna 1893 (or 95 acc. to some sources). i have here in VHS a proof that this very game continued to be presented through the following decades: an extract in which appears à vol d'oiseau the position near the end of the game and a couple of moves (from a tele-series presented by Jack Palance, named (if my memory dont fails) "Believe it of Not"...
Jun-24-04
Premium Chessgames Member
  ray keene: thank you vnK-SPEAKERS like yourself-OF LATINATE LANGUAGES SUCH AS SPANISH PORTUGUESE ITALIAN-will easily see that there is something odd about the players names in castellvi vinoles- i wd welcome hearing from more experts whether my conjecture about the possible town/country dichotomy is plausible.
Jun-25-04  Lawrence: Sorry to be unromantic but Castellví is a perfectly common Catalan name and Vinyoles also exists, and in Google one finds an example of Vinoles as a family name. Castellví de Rosanes is a town about 10 km. from where I live and Castellví de la Marca is not far away either. Other towns here in Catalonia are Vinyols i els Arcs, Sant Martí de Vinyoles, and Santa Margarida de Vinyoles.

"Castell" is "castle", "ví" is "wine", so Castellví could perhaps be translated as Wine Castle.

"Vinyols", "Vinyoles" etc. have reference to vineyards.

Surnames in the old days were usually either your profession or the town you came from. So Pere (Peter) from Castellví de la Marca arrives in Barcelona and to distinguish him from all the other "Pere"s he's called Pere Castellví.

Jun-25-04
Premium Chessgames Member
  ray keene: lawrence seems to have solved that one!! most fascinating
Jun-25-04  meloncio: <Lawrence> WELCOME BACK!! Where have you been the last month? Some people were asking for you in the Kibitzer's Cafe. I hope you're OK.
Jun-25-04  Lawrence: Hi, <meloncio>, just got back from almost a month in beautiful British Columbia with a 4 day trip down to sunny Seattle too. Regards.
Jun-25-04
Premium Chessgames Member
  tpstar: Hooray! Saint Lawrence is back in Black! Chessgames.com without Lawrence is like Canada without Loverboy. You've got mail = Quack vs Krimbacher, 1986.
Jun-25-04
Premium Chessgames Member
  Gypsy: WELLCOME BACK <Lawrence>!! I was begining to worry, I admit. Now, if <ben lau> also returns, all will be back to normal. To me, this place feels a bit out-of-joints without you two.
Jun-25-04  Lawrence: Thanks for the concern, guys, next time I go away I'll tell you in advance because it's true that at my age any absence may be the last one.
Jun-25-04
Premium Chessgames Member
  vonKrolock: another wonderfull piece of catalan onomastic by <Lawrence>: i still see however some contradiction between "Calvo's theory that it was in any case a ceremonial game -not a real clash" and "Castellví is a perfectly common Catalan name and Vinyoles also exists": if it was a theatrical performance, why should the parties be named whith 'common' bourgeois names, like if a game was found in a database (perhaps from some weekend-open)? - a research in the available documentation would be very interesting, and Keene's hypothesis is not discarted...
Jul-01-04
Premium Chessgames Member
  vonKrolock: on-line information:<"The "caualler" Francesc de Castellvi appears as one of the three authors of the "Scachs d´amor" poem. Even though he is the first known winner of a game of modern chess, he is relatively unknown. He was lord of several towns in the area around Jativa. He acted as a close adviser in the Aragonese court of King Ferdinand. He was surely a member of a distinguished Valencian family."> and <"Lo magnifich mossen Narcis Vinyoles", as he was called in his late works, died in Valencia in 1517, at an age estimated between 70 and 75 years. He was a relevant politician and writer in Valencia in the last quarter of the 15th.century. An important side of Vinyoles's personality is his literary productions> from 'The Origin of Chess' by Ricardo Calvo - so they were actually Chess personalities...
Jul-01-04  Lawrence: <vonKrolock>, well done for finding that! So, as suspected, it's not Vinoles but Vinyoles--the ny is the Catalan/Valencian equivalent of the Spanish ñ. "Caualler," a Knight, is from the days when a "u" substituted for a "v". The modern spelling is "cavaller." "Mossen" refers to a priest.
Jul-01-04
Premium Chessgames Member
  vonKrolock: thanks <Lawrence>and further:<The first recorded game of modern chess appears in a Catalan manuscript towards the end of the XV century in a manuscript entitled "Scachs d´amor. The complete title of the manuscript is: "Hobra jntitulada scachs d'amor feta per don franci de castellvi e narcis vinyoles e mossen bernat fenollar sota nom de tres planetes ço es Març Venus e Mercuri per conjunccio e jnfluencia dels quals fon jnventada". So, the names of the players were Castellvi* (white) and Vinyoles* (black), with an arbiter named Fenollar*.> more details in http://www.goddesschess.com/chessay... - a personal note: maybe this game is authentical, or perhaps a composed sample of "state of the art" in magistral chess... i'll give an <!> to 15.d5, but about 19.Bf4 my software known as "the king" says: "white had a won game before this error, but it was not costly, white was able to eventually mate"... :-)
Jul-02-04  Lawrence: In the <goddesschess> article that <vonK> mentions, Calvo points out that the title "mossen" could be applied to laymen too, and that Vinyoles was married, i.e. not a priest.

I still imagine that this was a real game, and that the poem came later.

Jul-02-04
Premium Chessgames Member
  ray keene: high quality kibbitzing-great to see whats being unearthed!!
Jul-02-04
Premium Chessgames Member
  vonKrolock: <ray keene>, Your friend R. Calvo is my only source - his article in the link above is monumental. Even so, and agreeding whith <Lawrence>, i will not embrace his conclusions about the inventional origin of the game-score... If the poets were "chess players", why they could not have played the actual moves? just because they needed a 41-plies game to reach the number 21+20+20+3 is NOT reason enough... - for me, Castellvi was presumably the "champion" and one of his efforts was chanted in verses - "Hobra jnventada" refers to the poem, not to the game... (by the way, i`ll like to read this poem... i discovered that xvth century catalan-valencian is a perfectly translucent language for a born brazilian... f. ex. "mossen" reminds directly to "monsenhor", still the correct form to treat a priest...)
Jul-02-04  meloncio: It's a pleasure to read things like that, but as Spaniard I'd like to say something. To say catalan/valencian maybe politically correct, but I think is not the true because is the same language. The only way to solve this question is, if you are in Catalonia you must call it just "catalan", and if in Valencia "valencian", of course. I'm sure Lawrence knows this political problem very good.

And BTW, in Spanish "monseñor" is still the correct form to treat a ... bishop, not a mere priest (I mean real bishop, not chess wood-bishop) :-D

Jul-02-04  Lawrence: <vonK>, you're a lot better Googler than I am. How did you find that link? I was trying to say that I think it was a real game, so we agree on this, right?

<meloncio>, as you know, don't tell Valencians that they speak Catalan! They're very jealous of their own identity. We get Valencian TV on satellite, and there are some very interesting differences between Valencian and Catalan.

"Mossen" today is the correct title for a priest in Catalonia.

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