|
< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 1 OF 2 ·
Later Kibitzing> |
Feb-27-03
 | | Honza Cervenka: Why not 15.Nxe4 Bxe4 (15...gxf4?? 16.Nxf6+ Qxf6 17.Bxb7 +-) 16.Bxe4 gxf4 17.Qh5? |
|
Feb-27-03
 | | Sneaky: Honza, I think you are right. It looks like even YOU can beat Ponomariov! 10.Nxe4 Bxe4 11.Bxe4 gxf4 12. Qh5 Re8 13.Qxh7+ Kf8 14.Bxa8 +- or 10.Nxe4 Be7 11.Bxg5! Bxe4 (...Bxg5 12.Nxg5 Bxg2 13.Qh5 +/-) 12. Bxe7 Qxe7 13.Qe2 +- (attacking bishop and knight.) |
|
| Feb-27-03 | | Spitecheck: ChessBase published sim line,
"Kasparov passed up an interesting tactical sideline after 13...dxe4 14.Nd2 g5!? when he could have tried 15.Nxe4!? Bxe4 16.Bxe4 gxf4 17.Qh5 Re8 18.Qxh7+ Kf8 19.Bb7, recovering the piece. But Black is active and the opposite colored bishops will make it difficult to convert the extra pawn." |
|
Feb-27-03
| | Sneaky: I was looking at the chessbase line up to 13.Qxh7+ Kf8 but then I figured on 14.Bxa8 Qxa8 15.Qh6+ Bg7 16.Qxf4. Chessbase's 14.Bb7 is a clever move--recoving the material and preserving the bishop. In either case, they are right--it could be a tricky ending to actually win. I retract my previous +- evaluation and give it +/= instead. |
|
Feb-27-03
| | Honza Cervenka: The line 15.Nxe4 Bxe4 16.Bxe4 gxf4 17.Qh5 Re8 18.Qxh7+ Kf8 19.Bb7 c5 20.Bxa6 (20.Qh6+ Bg7 21.Qxf4 cxd4 22.cxd4 Nb4! or 22.Rfd1 Nc5 23.Bxa8 Ne6 with next 24...Qxa8 and black is o.k.) 20...cxd4 21.Bc4 Re7 seems to be not bad for black. But I would prefer to play it as white...:-) |
|
| Mar-09-03 | | alhine: Blacks 12...Na6 should be queried. With white pawns on c3 and d4 and Blacks c-pawn still at home, what is black thinking? It is this move that gets him in all the trouble. From blacks point of view this position calls for Nd7, planning Re8 and Nf8. From f8, the knight covers h7 and can go to either e6 or g6. 12...Na6???, you can't play like this against Kasparov |
|
| Mar-09-03 | | Spitecheck: Na6 in the QID is often connected with supporting the ..c5 push attacking white's centre directly. Sometimes, for instance it's so the knight can jump to c7 (supporting a b5 push in the Benoni) or it can by used simply solidifying d5. Pono probably had a certain square in mind for this piece and it wasn't a6, in chess that's what we call a transit square.....the piece is only using it as a jumping point to greener pastures. Certainly Kasparov's e4 in the centre is a direct reaction to the knight's flirtation with the daffodils LOL. If a piece, particularly a knight stays on the edge for a longtime, it's generally not a good thing cause than it's about as useful as a pony. Karpov suffered many a fate due to idle knights against Kasparov. Not that a knight on the edge of the board can't be useful it's just that if the battle rages on the other side of the board the possessor is practically playing a piece down. You could say Ponomariov's knight got caught in transit. |
|
| Mar-09-03 | | mdorothy: I was wondering bout that too.. at a glance, my initial question was, why did Pono trade his great knight off on move 11, only to put his other one on the edge of the board where it seems useless?.. but, while that is a good answer, im still confused. |
|
| Mar-09-03 | | Spitecheck: <Mdor> It is confusing, I had the knight ending up in a thousand different places, as well as remaining on a6 (usefully) in some variations ( containing ..c5). The knight even seemed to be quite handy on d6 (c6, Nc7, Nb5, Nd6)!! attacking the c4 and e4 squares. Of course without an opponent chess would be extremely easy. Nbd7 instead of Na6 would probaby have made it easier for the spectators. :) |
|
| Mar-09-03 | | Spitecheck: All of Chessbase's published analysis says that Na6?! is purely for the ...c5 break, and in fact Na6 should be played a move earlier as in this game there is no time for ..c5. |
|
| Mar-09-03 | | alhine: To spitecheck: Thats my point; the move Na6 typically supports a c5 break or preludes the Na6-c7 maneuver supporting d5 and e6. In this case K's pawns and P's lack of time to move his c-pawn left his knight immobile and himself effectively a piece down. I call it a blunder. |
|
| Mar-09-03 | | Spitecheck: <Alhine> I figure once he played it to Na6, even after e4 he has to find a continuation that allows the c5 move, otherwise as you say it is a blunder in the fullest terms and not just dubious as Chessbase marks it. It looks to me that after Kasparov played e4 Ponomariov forget about his game and started to play Kasparov's game. Without the move e4! Pono probably get's away with it, and nobody notices :). That's why book is (as you may already know) Na6 before Nxc3 because than white cannot play e4. The interest for me in this game is finding some line other than that which Kasparov wanted. ciao for now,
Spitecheck |
|
| Mar-10-03 | | drukenknight: Why does black give up? how does it end? |
|
| Mar-10-03 | | Cyphelium: 44. gxf6 and black will have to sac his rook for the pawn, since the only move 44.- Rf8 (Nh6+ was threatened) can be met by 45. Nh6+ Kh8 46. Ke7 and the pawn cannot be stopped. (46.- Rb8 47. Nf5 followed by f7-f8.) The endgame after black's loss of the rook is easily won for white of course. |
|
| Mar-10-03 | | alhine: To drukenknight: after 44.Nh6+ Kf8 45.Nxf7 where does the black knight play? (1) 45...Ng4 46.h3 Nf2 47.h4 Ng4 48.Nd6, or (2) 45...Nh5 46.Nd6, or (3) 45...Ne4 46.h4 Nd2 46.Nd6. I think the white kingside pawn advantage decides plus the white king can infiltrate the queenside pawns. |
|
| Mar-10-03 | | drukenknight: to alhine have you thought what if the K goes to g7 e.g. 44 Nh6+ Kg7? |
|
| Mar-11-03 | | Cyphelium: To alhine: 44. Nh6+ Kf8 (or Kg7) 45. Nxf7 Ne4 46. h4 Nd2 and now you suggest 47. Nd6. Why can't black just take the knight with 47.- cxd6? Also, I would consider playing 46.- Nc3 instead of 46.- Nd2. Pawn a2 is having a hard time... even if the 44. Nh6+ variation wins, don't you agree it will certainly take more time to win than after 44. gxf6, which leaves white a whole knight up. (See my previous comment.) |
|
| Mar-11-03 | | drukenknight: cyph's line: 44. gxf6 Rf8
its always curious when we get to a pt. like this and guys start arguing that there are two ways to win! umm, gee that doesnt happen very often in chess, and when the position is finely balanced it almost never. so have we found one line that is winning? |
|
| Mar-11-03 | | Ghengis Pawn: the knight on a6 is pretty dim |
|
| Mar-11-03 | | alhine: To Cyphelium: My mistake, I meant 47.Ne5. You are right, white has the advantage and should probably have won earlier (ie: your message and cervenka's first message). To drukenknight: white still plays 45.Nxf7 with advantage. |
|
| Mar-11-03 | | drukenknight: you know the name of the game is to find THE winning line. Not to show how how many branches we can find. Alhine your tree is getting pretty leafy :) |
|
| Mar-12-03 | | alhine: Thank you Ghengis Pawn. Anyways, to drukenknight, you are right, I'll give you the winning line. First off, 44...Kg7 is the best chance for black. Taking it for granted that the black knight must move after 45.Nxf7 and disregarding 45...Ne8,[or g8,h5,g4 and d7], or assuming that 45...Ne4 is blacks best, my best play (in the absence of FRITZ) is 45.Nxf7 Ne4 46.Kf5! (if 46...Kxf7 47.Kxe4 Kg6 48.Kf4 Kh6 49.Kf5 winning)...Nd2 47.Ne5 a6 48.h4 b5 49.cxb axb 50.h5 Nb1 (planning...Nc3 attacking the a-pawn) 51.Nc6 (stopping...b4)...Nc3 51.Nb4 with white winning overwhelmingly. It is here that I cannot suggest a good move for black. I hope this trims things down a bit. |
|
| Mar-13-03 | | drukenknight: alhine: 45.Nxf7 Ne4 46.Kf5 Ng3+! 47 hxg3 Kxf7 and that looks to be impossible for white. But tomorrow I may change my mind. |
|
Mar-13-03
| | Sneaky: Here's the finale:
44. gxf6! Rf8 45. f7+ Rxf7 (...Kh8 46. Ke7) 46. Nh6+ etc. You don't get the letters GM next to your name by resigning a lot of drawn positions. |
|
| Mar-13-03 | | drukenknight: 44. gxf6!? Kf8!
right square, wrong piece SNeaky. LOL. |
|
 |
|
< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 1 OF 2 ·
Later Kibitzing> |
Kibitzing
sac: 43.Rf6