< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 2 OF 2 ·
|May-23-10|| ||whiteshark: Thought of 70.f5 gxf5 71.Kf4 with the idea of 72.g6, Kg5-h6 and g7 as winning.|
<70.Ke2> comes from the Eng.Dept.
|May-23-10|| ||chrisowen: Fruit likes 70.f5 is it a fever or there's a ghost in the machine? NA emcompass (sic) pushing the little fella gives joy. Stick promotion threat in his throat fully and level off the black screen splitting the pawns. Feeling bit pinky the bishop rushes forth and egest e5. Looks like f6 gobbling king's fallen space bugs black. Was the key stroke depressing 30..Bc8 then captures castle e8? Exchange operates play for white's rook, final leg do good ole arranging boxed king's hospital. 85.Bc3's awkward to meet and Pirc frees his game in time.|
|May-23-10|| ||leucoptera: 70. f5 will harm Black,
|May-23-10|| ||LIFE Master AJ: I am not even sure 70.f5!? is the best move ...
69...Bc3? was an error, better was 69...c3. Fritz 12, after about 45 minutes, likes 70.Ke2!! (And White is winning ... according to the machine, but I am not 100% sure about this.)
|May-23-10|| ||Marmot PFL: This one seemed easier than the last two days--
70 f5 is a typical endgame breakthrough, a. 70...gf5 71 Kf4, followed by g6, Kg5-f6
b. 70...Bxe5 71 f6 and Rg7+ and Rxg6 with connected passed pawns.
In either line there could be complications but these plans seem strong and I couldn't find a good defense.
|May-23-10|| ||Brandon plays: Yeah, in game, I'd just hope that I was up on time and hope for a draw. There is no way that I would come up with that continuation. |
By the way, I love the analogy, Once. :D
|May-23-10|| ||LIFE Master AJ: 70.f5!? - according to Fritz 12 - is NOT the best move. (Analysis below.) |
[70.Ke2!! Kf8!?; (Better is: 70...Be4; 71.Be3±) 71.f5! Bxe5; This is similar to the game. (Worse is: 71...gxf5?; 72.g6 Bxe5; 73.Bh6+ Ke8; 74.g7 Bxg7; 75.Rxg7 ) 72.f6 Bc6; 73.Rd8+ Be8; 74.Ba3 ]
|May-23-10|| ||TheaN: I honestly believe that computers can get a valid on this one, however on at least 30-ply-ish numbers. That is pretty much only possible within what, two to seven days? I have no true numbers on that. Why 30 or more? Pirc's combination lasts 30-ply. It may be expected Black has SOME resources even late into the combination.|
|May-23-10|| ||TheaN: Oh wait, pieces are limited, those putting this on this morning should have a reasonable verdict by now.|
|May-23-10|| ||VincentL: I looked at this last night, and actually considered 70. f5+ Bxf5 71. f6 followed by Ba3.|
However, even though these moves were played in the game, I don't feel I got more than 5% along the way towards solving this.
Against <David2009>'s Crafty, or something similar, I do not believe I would win the ending (except perhaps after about 10 failed trials, each failure effectively eliminating a wrong line).
As for 70 Ke2, I am wondering whether even a top grandmaster today would see and play such a move.
|May-23-10|| ||David2009: Pirc vs Gligoric, 1953 White 70? Insane|
I can't solve this one. I have looked at 70 f5 hoping for either 70...exf5?? Rxd5 or 70...gxf5 Kf4. White is now threatening g6 followed by
Kg5 and Kh6. If I have calculated correctly, Black can do little about this. Much stronger is 70...Bxd5 Now 71 fxg6 c3 and the WK obstructs the WB but needs to remain on e3 to guard the e4 square. 71 f6 leads nowhere since the pair of Bishops should easily keep the WK out, and the WB's
path to h6 , g7 and f8 is well blocked. Time to
Surprise: 70 f5 Bxe5 71 f6 was indeed played and I see my assessment is wrong: not only does White threaten Rg7+ winning the g6 Pawn, so
forcing 71...Bd4+ 72 Ke3 Be4, but after 73 Ba3 White is threatening f7+ followed by Rxd4! hence the game continuation.
Setting the position at move 70 up on Crafty, there is a surprise: Crafty captures gxf6 and loses quickly to the Kf4-g5-h6 invasion plan (costing a Bishop) whereupon White mates with R+B versus (eventually) B of opposite colour. Starting from move 71, Crafty follows the game line (if White plays Pirc's moves) until move 80 when it deviates with 80...Bxc5 losing
click for larger view
Pirc v Gligoric 1953, 70?
click for larger view
Pirc v Gligoric 1953, 71? http://www.chessvideos.tv/endgame-t...
<VincentL: [snip] Against <David2009>'s Crafty, or something similar, I do not believe I would win the ending (except perhaps after about 10 failed trials, each failure effectively eliminating a wrong line)>. I think this time you will be pleasantly surprised!
|May-23-10|| ||wals: Rybka 3 1-cpu: 3071mb hash: depth 20:
How Rybka saw the endgame.
White,a Rook for a Bishop and pawn.
+2.78 69...Bc3. small advantage with Be1 +2.51.
Black, Bishop and two pawns for a Rook.
+4.08 72...Be4. best c3, +3.26.
White (was this planned?)
=0.00 76.Rd7. Any one of these would have maintained the advantage,
1. (4.08): 76.Re7 Kg8 77.Rc7 e4 78.Bxc5 e3+ 79.Kc1 Bxc5 80.Rxc5 e2 81.Kd2 Kf7 82.Re5 Kg8 83.Rxe2 Bxe2 84.Kxe2 Kf7 85.Ke3 Ke6 86.Kd2 Kd7 87.Kc3 Kd6 88.Kxc4
2. (4.08): 76.Ke1 Bf5 77.Rc7 Bc3+ 78.Ke2 Bb4 79.Bxb4 cxb4 80.Rb7 Bg4+ 81.Ke3 Kg8 82.Rxb4 Be6 83.Rb7 Kf8 84.Rc7 Bd5 85.Rc5 Be6 86.Rxe5
3. (4.08): 76.Rc7 e4 77.Kc1 e3 78.Bxc5 Bxc5 79.Rc8+ Kh7 80.Rxc5 e2 81.Rc7+ Kg8 82.Kd2 Kf8
4. (4.08): 76.Kd1 c3 77.Rc7 c2+ 78.Kd2 Bf5 79.Re7 Kg8 80.Rg7+ Kh8 81.Rc7 Bf2 82.Bxc5 Be1+ 83.Kc1 Bg3 84.Be3 Kg8 85.Rg7+ Kh8 86.Kd2 Bf4 87.Bxf4 exf4 88.Rc7 f3 89.Ke3 Bg4 90.Rxc2 Kg8 91.Rf2
+4.08 76...Kg8. There is no computer analysis after Kg8.
1. = (=0.00): 76...Kg8. Shows equal in the analysis but +4.08 with the text move.
2. (7.12): 76...e4 77.Rd8+
3. (9.35): 76...c3+ 77.Kxd3
4. (13.78): 76...Bf2 77.Rd8+
5. (#17): 76...Bc2 77.Kxc2
The advantage for white continued,
80.Kc1 +4.87, 81...Be3, +12.92,
82...Bxg5, +(#8), 83...Bf6,(+#7)
|May-23-10|| ||Jimfromprovidence: My gut tells me that after 80...Bxc5 81 Rxc5 Kg8, black can make a fortress, say after the unforced 82 Re5 e2, below, or something else that ends up looking like that.|
click for larger view
No idea how to prove it though.
|May-23-10|| ||wals: <Jimfromprovidence>
Here is an analysis after incorporating your moves.
short calc. time:
Analysis by Rybka 3 1-cpu:depth 33:
1. (4.94): 83.Kb2 Kf8 84.Kc3 Kf7 85.Kd2 Kf8 86.Rc5 Ke8 87.Rc8+ Kf7 88.Ke1 Bf5 89.Rc7+
2. (4.94): 83.Kd2 Kf8 84.Rc5 Ke8 85.Rc8+ Kf7 86.Ke1 Bf5 87.Rc7+
3. (4.94): 83.Re8+ Kf7
4. = (0.08): 83.f7+ Kxf7
5. = (0.00): 83.Re6 c3 84.Re7 Kf8
|May-23-10|| ||RandomVisitor: After 70.f5:
click for larger view
<[+3.65] d=23 70...Bxe5> 71.f6 Bd4+ 72.Ke2 c3 73.Rg7+ Kf8 74.Rxg6 e5 75.Rg7 e4 76.Bf4 Bf7 77.Kd1 e3 78.Bd6+ Ke8 79.Bg3 Bb3+ 80.Kc1 Bf7 81.Kc2 Bd5 82.Re7+ Kf8 83.Bc7 Bc4 84.Rg7 Ke8 85.Bd6
[+3.40] d=23 70...gxf5 71.Kf4
|May-23-10|| ||dancindazed: Well is it a draw at the point where they were repeating moves with the rook checks on g7? Was white's best option to draw if black played kg8 one more time?|
|May-24-10|| ||tacticalmonster: 1) White has rook vs LSB and pawn.
2) White rook is on the seventh rank and attacks the LSB
3) c1 bishop is shut out by enemy and own force
4) White king is more active than its counterpart. But so far it has no infiltration squares on the kingside.
5) White has kingside space advantage. White kingside pawns are blockaded by its counterplay. Pawns breakthrough is needed. White should target the f5 square
6) Black has doubled c passed pawns blockaded by the c3 bishop. Black can give a potential check on d4 square.
Plan: a) use the power of the seventh rank rook to tie down BK
b) target the black king who has no piece defender
c) Mobilize White kingside pawns. Try to create passer
d) create inroad into black kingside for WK. Destroy either e6 or g6 pawn to free up squares.
e) activate white worst piece-c1 bishop. Need better diagonal
candidate: 70.f5 and 70 Rxd5
a) 70 Bxe5 71 f6 Bd4+ 72 Ke2 Be4
b) 70 exd5 71 e6 Kg7 72 Kf3! Black is in Zuganwan d4 73 f5! gxf5 74 Kf4 Kg6 75 Ke5 d3+ 76 Kd6 d2 77 Bxd2 Bxd2 78 e7 Kf7 79 Kd7
c) 72 Kf3 Ba1 73 Kg4 d4 74 f5 d3-too many possiblities. spends well over an hour on this. I give up
|May-24-10|| ||TheBish: Pirc vs Gligoric, 1953|
White to play (70.?) "Insane"
White is up an exchange for a pawn, and that pawn is doubled - advantage White. Also, the rook on the 7th has got to be big. White needs to break through somehow.
Candidates: Rxd5, f5
The exchange sac turns out to be a big lemon (I'll skip the analysis of that). But the pawn sac creates a passed pawn.
Now Black has two ways to win a pawn, but White comes out on top in both cases.
A) 70...gxf5 (not 70...exf5?? 71. Rxd5) 71. Kf4 Bd4 72. g6 c3 73. Kg5! Bxe5 74. Kh6 Kf8 75. g7+ Bxg7+ 76. Rxg7 c4 77. Kg6 Ke8 78. Bg5! c2 79. Re7+ Kf8 (or 79...Kd8 80. Rxe6+) 80. Rd7 Bc6 81. Rd8+ Be8+ 82. Kf6 followed by 83. Bh6+ and mate shortly.
B) 70...Bxe5 71. f6 Bd4+ 72. Kf4 e5+ 73. Kg3 (forced) Be4 74. Rc7 c2 75. Bxc5 Bxc5 (or 75...c1=Q 76. f7+ Kh7 77. f8=Q#) 76. Rxc5 Kf7 77. Kf2 Ke6 78. Ke2 Kf7 79. Kd2 Ke6 80. Rxe5+ Kxe5 81. f7 wins.
|May-24-10|| ||Jimfromprovidence: <wals> Thanks for the assist.|
|May-24-10|| ||tacticalmonster: To be honest, I don't think Pirc see all the way to the finish in this 13 moves combination. The way he tried to gain time on the clock when he keeps repeating position from move 75 5 to 77 suggests that. If he saw the whole combination, he wouldn't feel the need to repeat the position. |
Probably only Tal, Kasparov, Alekine and Fischer can see all the way to the finish.
|May-24-10|| ||tacticalmonster: This puzzle is totally out of my league. A wake up call suggesting I need to work harder on my tactic.|
|May-24-10|| ||RandomVisitor: If 70.f5 Bxe5 71.f6 Bd4+ 72.Ke2 <c3>, then 73.Rg7+ Kf8 74.Rxg6 +3.91/25 might continue 74...e5 75.Rg7 e4 76.Bf4 Bf7 77.Kd1 e3 78.Bg3 Bb3+ 79.Kc1 e2 80.Bd6+ Ke8 81.Re7+ Kf8 82.Rxe2+ etc.|
|May-30-10|| ||johnlspouge: After more than 97 hours of computation, Toga gives the following as best play on both sides. (Humans can improve near the end of the complete computer variation.)|
[ply 31/118+ time 97:31:31 value +3.05]
70.f5 Bxe5 71.f6 Bd4+ 72.Ke2 c3 73.Rg7+ Kf8 74.Rxg6 e5 75.Rg7 e4
76.Re7 Bc4+ 77.Ke1 Bb3 78.Ba3 Kg8 79.Rxe4 Kf7 80.Re7+ Kg6
81.Rg7+ Kh5 82.Rb7 Bd5 83.Rc7 Kg6 84.Bxc5 Be5 85.Rg7+ Kf5
86.Re7 Bg3+ 87.Kd1 Bb3+ 88.Ke2 Bc4+ 89.Kf3 Be5 90.f7 Bg7
91.Bd4 Bf8 92.Rc7 Bd5+ 93.Ke3 Kg6 94.Bxc3 Bxf7
|Nov-02-19|| ||cunctatorg: Really great (and pretty intriguing, fascinating and tasty) chess!!|
|Dec-19-19|| ||Knighthawkmiller: 81. ... c3 (instead of Be3+) threatens to promote the pawn. White cannot stop the pawn promotion at e1 (with check) except by checking black's king (Rc8+). Black's king is mated if it moves to g8. Best for white is draw by repetition. Per the game 81 ... Be3+ moves the white king off the first rank and is missed on the long diagonal. SG was an inspiring player and person.|
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