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| May-21-05 | | Catfriend: I spoke right now (via www.yahoo.com) to Ms.Hwang! She's a very nice and modest person, working hard to improve her already excellent chess level. Here we see an example of her deep understanding, and against a very tough opponent too! Thank you, Ms.Hwang, for the kind words and for showing this game! |
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| Jul-29-05 | | dac1990: I don't understand the annotations behind black's 39th move. 39.Rf6 Qa2+ 40.Kg3 looks nowhere near checkmating yet. |
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| Jul-30-05 | | valerianus: <dac1990> That is an excellent point. I just contacted Miss Hwang and apparently, for this move (and a couple of erroneous notations I already noted in several posts above) she delegated the annotation work to a second of the present Douglaston Champion, Jong Wah Wong. Apparently, JW's seconds were pretty awful chess players and only considered 40. Kg1?? which of course falls to 40..Rc1#. Miss Hwang looked over the proofs herself this morning and has proposed the following correction for Black's thirty-ninth move. "If Black tried 39...g6?! there would follow 40. Re8! (40. Rf6? allows Black a legitimate drawing shot with 40...Qc4!, i.e.: 41. gxf5 Qe2+ 42. Kg3 Qe1+ 43. Kg1 Qd1+ 44. Kh4 Qe1+ 45. Kg4=) Qg7 41. Qxb5. |
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| Jul-30-05 | | valerianus: By the way <chessgames.com>, when I look at the General Kibitzers' page now (2:56 PM California Time), I see my comment on it, but not dac1990's. I wonder if anything is wrong... |
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| Oct-09-05 | | sleepkid: One hates to be both a sceptic and a thundercloud over a parade, but the whole thing seems a little grand for me. Annotations from the book of the Douglaston-Seongeup Chess Summit?? Which appears to simply have been four Koreans visiting New York (in a limo?) meeting four members of the Douglaston chess club in a park for a rumble? (Sharks? Jets? Anyone?) The annotations are lovely, and very dramatic (and include what was probably a very annoying nine draw offers in a row) but there is nothing really worthy of "careful study" - no more so than any other B or A level players games. The endgame, though long and hard fought (but mostly just long) has many weak moves where both opponents miss key lines, and the winning "combination" while cute, is hardly novel and is something that any master worth his salt would have seen instantly (nevermind the fact that Qf4+ also wins, though not as quickly.) I am not criticising Ms. Hwang here, but aside from trouncing the Douglaston Chess Club (whom she has also apparently charmed the socks off) and several battles with her close friend Mr. Wong, she's not rated with the USCF or FIDE, and she's obviously not a Master strength player, and the game, while I'm sure it improved relations greatly between Seongeup Village (the one on Jeju island? with all the thatched huts?) and Douglaston, it wasn't really a major event was it? So my question here is, how does this game meet the criteria to be on chessgames.com? We don't have two master strength players, we don't have a true rated event, there is no valuable theoretical novelty in the opening (unless you count a draw offer every move until your opponent blunders?) and the endgame is mostly of interest because of it's length and not the skill with which it was conducted. Let me just finish by saying that in no way do I intend to give offense to Ms. Hwang or her legion of fans. I am just trying to ascertain why this game is in the collection, and if there are games that I previously thought not worth submitting that I should be? |
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| Oct-09-05 | | sleepkid: ...and now, after a little research...
...not to cast further doubt on the subject, but searches in Korean (by a native Korean speaker) turn up no information on Seongeup Chess, or any of the names Haneul Chung, Junghye Kang, Eunyoung Park, and Hyungsook Kim (the Korean competitors in this event) in connection with the word chess. After lots of searching for various chess clubs in Korea, the biggest one found was the Bongcheon Chess Club (http://yachess.com) in Seoul, which says "The strength of players are probably rated 1000-1800 although there're couple of class A players" - and this is in Seoul, the largest city of Korea. So, while it is not impossible that there is a hidden cache of four expert rated chess females from a remote provincial village in Korea who when travelling to New York go about in a limo, I find it extremely unlikely. I would also like to point out that a search of Lauren Seowon Hwang in Korean turns up nothing, and searches in english only turn up an article which has been posted onto every wiki style information site available (from the apparently exensive Douglaston Chess Congress Biographical Archives.) Searches for the Douglaston Chess Club or Congress or Society also only result in free information sites or links back to chessgames.com ...so, has someone mentioned that this is a hoax earlier and I'm just late to the party, or what? It's all very amusing (especially the 20th birthday article posted on her main page here at chessgames.com, and the two games listed as the "Douglaston Blindfold Preliminaries" between a then 7 year old Lauren Seowon Hwang and her sparring partner Jong Wah Wong), but please... |
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| Oct-09-05 | | aurelian: I can attest to the strength of Lauren's chess. The problem lies in the fact that her games here (aside from the 1992 pieces, where she thoroughly steamrolls over Wong) were played under severe indisposition. Douglastonites may recall that the DCC championships are twenty-four games in length and are held annually. So why did the 2003 match end after just sixteen games? Well, Hwang and Wong claimed indisposition. The championship match was held again later in the year, and the quality of the games was better. When Hwang and Wong labor under indisposition, they play really odd openings (i.e. not the Queen's Gambit Declined ones that we're all used to, having watched them since 1989) and this alone scares the living $#*@ out of us. Regarding your actual question, the DCC is a not-for-profit organization and all proceeds for membership and match winnings go straight to charity. We cannot afford a real website, and using some canonical free geocities or yahoo account would just undermine us. The official financial policies of the DCC are determined by its champions, and because only Wong and Hwang have held the title since circa 1991 (and perhaps to 1989), their policies trump all others. Perhaps someday, when a more pecuniary-minded person takes the helm, we will have a professional if expensive website. |
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| Oct-09-05 | | notsodeepthought: <sleepkid> Regardless of the strength (or not) of Hwang, that 20th birthday article on her main page was hilarious! Not clear whether it was intentionally so... but anyway, thanks for pointing out. |
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| Oct-09-05 | | aw1988: Sorry, but why is someone offering a draw NINE TIMES IN A ROW??? Isn't that just a little tiring? |
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| Oct-09-05 | | valerianus: <aw1988> It depends on who you are. Korean chess-players are very patient, especially girls. They LOVE Ulf Andersson, and revere him as much as they revere Carl Schlechter. When they play amongst themselves, a multitude of draw offers is not uncommon. I for one understand that some news on Hwang may read over the top, but it is completely true. If anything, Wong (the lesser known component of the H-W rivalry) has such a mundane and boring life that you wouldn't believe it either. Consider it a presentation of extremes, if you will, but very true extremes. |
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| Oct-09-05 | | valerianus: <aw1988> And furthermore, one must respect the great intellectual prowess and social graces of Ms. Hwang. Yes, she might be insanely wealthy, which is why she wound up in Africa in the first place, but at least she does something constructive with it. |
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| Oct-09-05 | | aw1988: I too love Ulf Andersson's technique, as well as Schlechter's iron, faceless (which is why Lasker could not crack him) play. But to offer a draw on every move for 9 moves... I'm not criticizing her! Only her absurd offers. |
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| Oct-09-05 | | valerianus: <aw1988> Well, we're human beings too, and even though I'm not the champion of Douglaston, I'm not going to be Miss Hwang's lawyer here. The only thing I will say is that Korean girls, if Hwang and the Seongeup people are any proof, love to draw. Maybe we should look a little deeper. These chess experts are obviously rather young, so they have parents. And it is a rather well-known fact in Douglaston Chess circles that Hwang's parents have only reluctantly approved of her chess. So don't you think that any way to "reduce" her mental burden would be looked upon favorably by her relatives? Even among Korean girls who DON'T like repetitive draw offers, a strong respect exists for girls similarly talented, but perhaps not as inclined to fight. Call it a "tacit understanding" between the draw-lovers and draw-haters of Korean women chess players, if you will. =) |
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| Oct-10-05 | | sleepkid: I would also like to point out that the users: valerianus, aurelian, semesterian, and glycerius (all members of the "Douglaston chess community", and apparently the only people who have ever seen Ms. Hwang) are more likely all the same user, since all of their accounts were created within the same two day period, are similarly themed names, use the same basic writing style, and all write in support of each other. (though I am sure some elaborate excuse will be made for this.) No website for the Douglaston Chess Community? What? Ms. Hwang's fabulous wealth which allows her to conduct charity missions where her less than 100 lbs. frame slings bags of coffee around Uganda while being accompanied by her own personal Douglaston Chess correspondent and the immense fees she collects from conducting blindfold simuls on Jeju island doesn't allow her to make a meager donation to the chess club she has so thoroughly dominated for the past 10 or so years so that the DCC can have it's own website, and perhaps draw more members so that it can donate more money to charity? ...and most of the other comments are even more ridiculous. (reverence for Ulf Andersson among Korean Chess players? As I pointed out before, there aren't enough chess players in Korea to shake a stick at, much less establish a strong trend towards favouring draws and loving Carl Schlecter.) An elaborate hoax or an elaborate fantasy, or a bit of both. Whichever, it's over. Please stop wasting our time and chessgames.com's disk space and band width. |
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| Oct-11-05 | | Bartleby: The winner, after three rounds by KO, is Sleepkid, the new Welterweight Hoax-busting Champion. Take a bow sleepkid, and here's your belt. |
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| Oct-12-05 | | sleepkid: Thanks. I didn't set out to be a hoax-buster, but this one just had to be stopped. I wonder how far this extends? How many databases they uploaded these games too? Whose games they really are? ...but mostly I'm just glad it's over. <chessgames.com> should probably remove these games from the database. I've brought the matter to their attention, but they haven't responded as of yet. Too busy watching the FIDE World Championship I guess. |
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| Oct-12-05 | | harrwitz: <sleepkid> Have you ever considered that maybe Miss Hwang is thoroughly acquainted with the particulars of Korean chess? She has a small network of friends in Korea who play the game, and bases her generalizations on what they think. So is the Andersson and Schelchter proclivity necessarily representative of all Korean chess players, mostly girls? Of course not, but the fact is that we don’t know. But it is very compelling that Hwang’s network is geographically diverse, so the Andersson and Schlechter favoritism applies just as strongly as the hypothesis that John Warner represents all his constituents in Virginia as the senior US senator. Hwang certainly, in this case, represents at least a sizable minority of Korean feminine chessic thought, as does Warner with his Virginian constituents. I did not submit this game (H-Kim, 2005), but I did submit others of Hwang. And I am a neutral observer, and live outside Douglaston. Hwang's colleagues who happen to be registered here also have lives of their own, and they do not act as rubber-stamps to her preeminence. They have actively tried to unseat her as the champion, however unsuccessfully, in the candidates’ matches. So this explains why NO ONE in this site is a head-over-heels Hwang fan. Have you ever noticed, sleepkid, that the commenters here also comment on other web pages? Chessgames is for the community. No one here has an agenda to elevate Hwang’s games over everyone else’s. The aim of the DCC, if I can recall from the 1991 Hastens Declaration of the then-inchoate DCC, is to promote community, not Hwang. That’s why DCC members are uniquely suited to help other people, so that’s why you see them commenting on pages that have nothing to do with Miss Hwang. So your argument that games here are forgeries falls flat because no one here is obviously promoting Hwang over other people. Hwang is a genuinely kind person, and it seems that you’re not going to grant that wonderfully kind human beings are out there who play chess. She does exist, and is perhaps one of the better exemplars of Korean feminine chess. We’d like her to reduce the draws she’s had with Wong (90 percent of her games thereabouts), but that’s her problem. Why else would people write such seemingly unbelievable things about her, unless they were actually true? They are true. We gently ask you to withdraw your skepticism. |
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| Oct-12-05 | | harrwitz: Oh, and on the actual merits of this game: Black should be lauded for having avoided the draw with Miss Hwang, although she had to resort to a positionally dubious move (13...e5) to unbalance the game, a factor that Hwang more or less ruthlessly exploited. This game, independent of the participants, has importance because it shows a rare case of the infamously drawish Slav Exchange being brought to its conclusion. And I must say that Hwang rivaled Kim's notoriously good mastery of Queen-and-pawn endgames. (Note Hwang's explanation on why getting the Second Queen would only appear to draw the game, a tribute mostly to Kim's sly foxiness!) |
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| Oct-12-05 | | notsodeepthought: <sleepkid: I would also like to point out that the users: valerianus, aurelian, ... and glycerius are more likely all the same user...> Incidentally, can anyone - <harrwitz>, perhaps? - comment on the other fascination of the Douglaston Chess Club, to wit, Roman emperors...? |
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| Oct-12-05 | | harrwitz: <notsodeepthought> Good question...again, I'm an outsider so I may not be sure... Hwang, in many ways, given her official biographies, has the innocence and naivete of a Korean girl. But rumors, I think, have circulated (since the mid-nineties) that in private, she is passionately political, and what's more, a Korean constitutional monarchist (meaning that she would love to see a constitutional monarch atop the Korean government)... ...In a weird way, the DCC members who styled themselves after emperors might be poking fun at her through this gesture...but that's a guess... ...Of course, in a DCC that prides itself on the concepts of community and Americana, members have severely criticized her, justiably or not, for purportedly holding these views. The woman has "skeletons" in her closet, I tell you...=) |
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| Oct-12-05 | | notsodeepthought: <Of course, in a DCC that prides itself on the concepts of community and Americana, members have severely criticized her, justiably or not, for purportedly holding these views.> I respect all political views - but while they are at it, perhaps they could criticize her (and here they would be certainly justified) for the nine draw offers... :) |
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| Oct-12-05 | | harrwitz: <notsodeepthought> Even given the comments of <valerianus> (Andrew West) about Hwang's love for draws in the schism of the Korean [women's] chess world between those who favor draws and those who don't, nine draw offers is still a tough proposition for even her admirers to digest. Good point, LOL... |
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| Oct-13-05 | | sleepkid: <harrwitz>: First of all, please be aware that many of your statements make no sense: <Have you ever considered that Miss Hwang is thoroughly acquainted with the particulars of Korean chess? She has a small network of friends in Korea who play the game, and bases her generalizations on what they think.> Ms. Hwang could not possible be "thoroughly" acquainted with Korean chess if she only has a small network of friends there, and makes "generalizations". Secondly, most of your statements (along with those of valernius, et al.) about Korean "girls" or women border on offensive. They show serious stereotyping, and not even a remotely correct stereotype at that. I am in a position to know this because I live with a Korean girl (who incidentally learned to play chess when she lived in Moscow, so I won't use her as an example of "Korean Chess Thought"), I am well acquainted with all of her Korean female friends as well as having some of my own, and I've spent quite a bit of time in Korea on various occasions. I've also had to watch several typical Korean dramas, and there are no overtly "naieve" or "innocent" stereotypes even in these dramas. (a stereotypical format if there ever was one.) Secondly, if there truly is a Ms. Hwang , it should be obvious to all that she is not a steretypical Korean (fabulously wealthy, inordinately shy, raised in America, flying off to Africa, conducting blindfold simuls, under 100 lbs., a constitutional monarchist, taking naps in her parents laps at the age of 20, etc.) and anyone who draws conclusions about "Korean girls" based on their interactions with her is a fool. Also, would someone please explain to me how the alleged Hyungsook Kim received such a "notorious" reputation for her ability to play pawn and queen endgames? She's not a FIDE rated player, she doesn't show up on any Korean web pages associated with chess, and we only have this game of hers in the database. Certainly not very notorious, crafty, or anything else for that matter. I also can find no evidence of Ms. Hwang on USCF or FIDE, despite her reputed rating of 2207. Web searches only reveal the same biography which has been uploaded to user editable web pages, and of course the games and accounts of her here at the chessgames.com database, some of which overstep the border of fantastic. So it is only natural that I should be sceptical. However, there's an easier way to get to the bottom of this: (continued below) |
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| Oct-13-05 | | sleepkid: I simply offer a challenge to Ms. Hwang and the members of the Douglaston Chess Community. I will be in New York this coming December and can arrange for time off to play an exhibition game with Ms. Hwang sometime during my trip. Though I never obtained a Master's rating, and have taken some time off from chess while working on my Master's degree here in Japan, my last performance rating was a 2130 and I have kept in shape by playing the odd correspondence game or two. If Ms. Hwang has already relocated to Korea (as her biography says) then I can arrange to meet her there sometime in January or February as I will be participating in an exhibition there in the near future. If Ms. Hwang (while jetting around the world) ever happens to stop by here in Japan, I can arrange to meet her here, and even offer her accomodations complete with Korean home cooking while we play a game. I ask Ms. Hwang to contact me (in Korean please) at the following e-mail address: el_topo_1975@yahoo.co.jp I'm certain Ms. Hwang's famously kind and generous nature will allow her to understand my scepticism, and meet with me to assuage my doubts. Once I have become convinced of the veracity of Ms. Hwang and her chess playing prowess, I will offer her a complete personal apology, and post an abject public apology here on chessgames.com I ask any members of the "Douglaston Chess Community" (or <harrwitz>, who even though claiming to be outside the DCC can recall details of their "1991 Hastens Declaration", and is apprently well acquainted with the rumours which have been wildly circulating regarding Ms. Hwang's political persuasions) to temporarily suspend any ill feelings that I may have caused with my scepticism, and to assist me in this matter by conveying my request for a game to Ms. Hwang. Until then, I reserve the right to maintain a healthy scepticism in this matter. Thank you. |
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| Oct-13-05 | | ughaibu: Sleepkid: all good fun but I disagree with your motion to have the game removed from the archive. Other fabrications remain and the kibitzing on this one, if not the game itself, would be a loss if expunged. |
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