|
< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 791 OF 1067 ·
Later Kibitzing> |
| Nov-27-06 | | setebos: Thanksgiving is over,why is this turkey still alive? :-) |
|
| Nov-27-06 | | Karpova: <<Willem Wallekers> wanted to know if we could 'win' the continuation 35.Qc7 Be7 36.Rf3 h5 (if I read correctly). I can't look into it now.> What about:
30.R1f2 Re4 31.fxg6 fxg6 32.Qg5 Rf8 33.Rf8: Bf8: 34.Qd8 Re8 35.Qc7 Be7 36.Rf3 h5 37.Re3 Bg5 38.Re8:+ Qe8: 39.Qd6: Qf7 40.Qb8+ Kh7 41.Qa7 (or 41.Bc7 perhaps) 
click for larger view
Does it look good? |
|
Nov-27-06
 | | Tabanus: 30.fxg6 fxg6 31.Qg5 Rc2 32.Rf7 Re6: I'll not give up on this one before tomorrow. If 33.Bc7 collapses here, the whole 30.fxg6 fxg6 31.Qg5 line collapses. |
|
| Nov-27-06 | | Thorsson: <jepflast> OK. Now all you have to do is show that the ending, which your R1f2 line reaches, is a win. Or even winning, if there is a distinction. Plenty of time. |
|
| Nov-27-06 | | Thorsson: <Tabanus: 30.fxg6 fxg6 31.Qg5 Rc2 32.Rf7 Re6: I'll not give up on this one before tomorrow. If 33.Bc7 collapses here, the whole 30.fxg6 fxg6 31.Qg5 line collapses> Fallacy! 33.b4 might be OK, for instance. |
|
Nov-27-06
| | Tabanus: <Thorsson> 33.b4 is 0.34 at 21-ply. Semi-fallacy, maybe. |
|
| Nov-27-06 | | Karpova: 30.fxg6 fxg6 31.Qg5 Rc2 32.Rf7 Re6 33.b4 h6 34.Qd8+ Qe8
White's advantage fades away |
|
| Nov-27-06 | | Thorsson: <Tabanus: 33.b4 is 0.34 at 21-ply. Semi-fallacy, maybe.> I've said it once, but I'll say it again. I'm not trusting these evaluations at all. Perhaps Rybka wants to transpose into the already analysed line a tempo down by playing 32...Re6 33.b4 Ree2 (34.Kh1). The "punchlines" to these are over the horizon at 21-ply. |
|
Nov-27-06
| | Tabanus: <Thorsson: over the horizon at 21-ply> That's why I'll let it go to 22-23-24-25-ply if necessary. |
|
| Nov-27-06 | | Thorsson: <Karpova: 30.fxg6 fxg6 31.Qg5 Rc2 32.Rf7 Re6 33.b4 h6 34.Qd8+ Qe8 White's advantage fades away> OK lines I can deal with. And I agree. |
|
| Nov-27-06 | | Thorsson: But oddly enough 30.fxg6 fxg6 31.Qg5 Rc2 32.Rf7 Re6 33.b3!? h6 34.Qd8+ Qe8 doesn't work for Black because the R isn't threatening d4. |
|
Nov-27-06
 | | Domdaniel: Does anyone have a simple explanation of (a) why 30.R1f2 might be stronger than 30.fxg6, and (b) why they don't simply transpose? After 30.R1f2, as I understand it, we delay the plan of fxg6 and Qg5 for one more prophylactic move. The debate is whether Black can do anything useful with this move - can he make luft for his king with ...h6 (etc), or does he play something 'neutral' like 30...Re4 (etc)? If Black can't *do* anything, then 30.R1f2 must be stronger. Unless, of course, the straightforward 30.fxg6 fxg6 31.Qg5 is winning, complete with 'hairy' king jiggles and uncertain endings? Apart from the various down-the-line subtleties, is there a strong - and broadly agreed - argument for 30.R1f2? If there's a clear and agreed explanation, plus general backing here, the vote situation may still be reversible. |
|
Nov-27-06
| | Tabanus: <Thorsson> 33.b3 may not work for white either. It scores 0.19. Well, the Devil's Advocate goes to bed. |
|
| Nov-27-06 | | Thorsson: <Tabanus: 30.fxg6 fxg6 31.Qg5 Rc2 32.Rf7 Re6> Well 33.Bc7 seems enough anyway. |
|
| Nov-27-06 | | RonB52734: On the database statistics page, this game is number 4 with a bullet: ChessGames.com Statistics Page. I predict it will be number 1 before its over, surpassing the kibitzer's cafe. In fact, I will bet $20 of <WannaBe>'s money on it! |
|
| Nov-27-06 | | jepflast: <Domdaniel: Apart from the various down-the-line subtleties, is there a strong - and broadly agreed - argument for 30.R1f2?> In general, 30. R1f2 cuts way down on Black's options, since we take away the 2nd rank. After that, Black simply can't make any counter threats whatsoever. White will be directing the course of the game. We've been looking mostly at one or two lines, but White does have some options. I'd say that's the general argument. |
|
| Nov-27-06 | | Thorsson: <Domdaniel> I have one simple problem with R1f2. The line that Jepflast loves produces an ending that I see as worse than the endings after fxg6/Qg5. If someone can find a winning plan in that ending then I'll support it. Earlier I posed the question: if Black truly has no useful moves here, why stop at one more prophylactic move? Why not play another after Re4? OTOH if it's not true after Re4, do we want to allow this move in this position? |
|
| Nov-27-06 | | Artar1: I agree with jepflast who has said it well. Black will be compelled to play more defensively and cautiously because we have defended our second rank. 30.fxg6 gives Black more options and relieves some of the tension. I am still working on a line of play that is much less dramatic than Black placing his rooks on White's second rank. So far, that line of play looks a bit drawish. |
|
Nov-27-06
| | Domdaniel: <jepflast, Thorsson, & Artar1> Thanks. It seems pretty much as I had thought - subtleties that may end up being crucial, but no really overwhelming case either way. I'm already in the R1f2 camp, btw, but I don't think fxg6 is bad. That's just a very superficial assessment of the lines you've been posting. Earlier, <boomie> wanted to take 30.fxg6 as a given and move on to the next phase with new forums for the ensuing lines. I'm still inclined to leave things as they are for now. |
|
| Nov-27-06 | | weisyschwarz: From the Devil's Advocate Forum...
YouRang: <Angus Canuck> Thanks for bringing attention to these posts. I think <chesstoplay> is correct to assert that GMAN is playing to win. It seems like a lot of the talk in the main forum shows hints of overconfidence, as if GMAN should thank his lucky stars to salvage a draw. But GMAN's greatest advantage is long-term planning. This suggests why he excels at beating computers, and white is largely computer driven. It does look like Black is getting poised for a ...Re2 move, perhaps w/ ...Rcc2 also in the works. White has a dangerous *looking* attack with doubled rooks on the kingside, but can it really amount to something in time? It's getting interesting... |
|
| Nov-27-06 | | jepflast: <Thorsson: <Domdaniel> I have one simple problem with R1f2. The line that Jepflast loves produces an ending that I see as worse than the endings after fxg6/Qg5. If someone can find a winning plan in that ending then I'll support it.> I only love the idea that if that ending is a win, Black is practically forced to go there. So I'd like to keep the vote close in case we have to switch in a hurry. As for that ending, it's difficult, but I'm working on it. Progress is being made. But if not for this one tantalizing chance, 30. fxg6 would be pretty much the clear choice. |
|
| Nov-27-06 | | weisyschwarz: This passage from The Devil's Advocate Forum goes against what I was thinking. I had figured that GMAN was desperately seeking exchanges, so as to push for a draw. His pawns may be doubled, but they act as barriers at b5, c4 and c5 against our K making a trip out there. Thus the b-pawn goes nowhere. Do we need/have a Long term Planning" forum? |
|
Nov-27-06
| | Domdaniel: **FORUMS**
There's a full set of links to the current forums and analysis workshops in my post on p.787. The same links can be found at any time on my forum profile, by punching that irritating eye to the left. <--- So I won't repeat the info here now.
Thank you. |
|
Nov-27-06
 | | tamar: <weisyschwarz> Nickel's approach to this game has been carefree and friendly. I don't think he has expended the effort that he took to beat Hydra. 27...Rac8 looks like an over the board move to get counterplay. I think it serves our interest to let him continue with that plan by 30 fxg6 fxg6 31 Qg5 because in the long term, his active rooks must return to defend his King, and at that point his doubled pawns will be targets, and he will be unable to prevent the b4-b5 advance. |
|
| Nov-27-06 | | Artar1: <tamar: <weisyschwarz> Nickel's approach to this game has been carefree and friendly.> I think you're right about this assessment. I don't think he has taken us very seriously. He will most likely play his rooks to our second rank, only to discover that we will not fold. |
|
 |
|
|
< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 791 OF 1067 ·
Later Kibitzing> |
Kibitzing
