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| Nov-27-06 | | Bob726: <Ronb7452> It is still more than 40,000 kiblitzes short of Kiblitze's Cafe. |
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| Nov-27-06 | | Angus Canuck: <weisyschwarz: ... His pawns may be doubled, but they act as barriers at b5, c4 and c5 against our K making a trip out there. Thus the b-pawn goes nowhere.> Tit for tat: I have copied your message to the Devil's Advocate forum. |
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| Nov-27-06 | | weisyschwarz: <Angus Canuck> :-) Fair is fair. <Artar1> <tamar> Many times in this game we have said the upcoming move is the most important move. I say it again now. I think he is showing his teeth. Indeed, he has only 2 rooks, not 4. But he is calulating well. No one saw 29...Qb5. HIs play may have a hypnotic effect, lulling us into thinking we are playing against a kitty, but the tiger lies within, in reality. |
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| Nov-27-06 | | Artar1: weisyschwarz:
Well, what you say maybe true.
But if Nickel puts his rooks on our second rank, he will be entering into a tactical sequence, which our computer programs will handle much better than a nebulous positional line requiring subtle maneuvering. It's in the subtle maneuvering where chess programs are likely to faulter. |
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Nov-27-06
 | | Domdaniel: <weisy> Lots of people saw 29...Qb5, it had been covered in earlier forums, and I think it was the top possibility in RV's forum. The myth that it was overlooked seems to have grown because there was no forum specially covering it during the 24 hrs GMAN took to move. Even there, I'd listed it in my forum as one of 3 moves I'd like to see covered. The first 2 hosts to volunteer went for the other two - the assumption was that 29...Qb5 was the mainline, and we shd look closer at sidelines in the few hours we had. And I didn't look hard enough for a 3rd volunteer.
A wrong call by me, arguably. But no need to let the myth that we were caught napping run wild. |
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| Nov-27-06 | | Artar1: Domdaniel:
You have done a great job, so I will have to disagree with you on that one. The reason 29...Qb5 was not covered more extensively was because it was felt that moving the Black queen to the queenside away from the Black king was not the best defensive strategy. I still believe that White has the better winning chances. If anything, 29...Qb5 entails more risk for Black than other options, but what those other options are I couldn't tell you. I would not want to be Black in this game. Black will most likely play his rooks to the second rank in order to scare us. But the G-MAN should know that we are using a battery of computers and that we have some very strong players working on the analytical aspects of this game. A better strategy for the G-MAN would have been to assume that he was playing against another CC grandmaster, and he should have played accordingly. |
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| Nov-27-06 | | chesstoplay: Dear Everybody,
Are we allowed to bring in outside conversations about the position? I just finished teaching with US Open Champion Yury Shulman and had this position up on one of my computers. He offered an opinion.
Please let me know what the rules are or what your preference may be. I do not want to do anything wrong or ruin anyone's fun in the playing of the game as amateurs. And, no, I am not a high rated player.
I am more a patron of chess in our area who loves creating more chess! Thanks, as always, to all the chess fans playing this amazing game on the World Team. |
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| Nov-27-06 | | weisyschwarz: <Dom> I am saying that by comparison with what we WERE looking for, it slipped by. It looks more natural than ...Re4. Or ...Rc4. Even Thorsson didn't quite see it. But if Kramnik can miss things, why can't we? |
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| Nov-27-06 | | Artar1: chesstoplay:
God, I am dying to hear what Yury Shulman had to say. |
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| Nov-27-06 | | Nightranger: <A better strategy for the G-MAN would have been to assume that he was playing against another CC grandmaster, and he should have played accordingly.> Maybe he did. This would mean he has a plan. As I said before, I was surprised at Qb5 for the reasons mentioned. As I recall, the answer to .. Qb5 was going to be R1f2. Reading between the lines here, it sounds like we think GMAN is underestimating us. I don't think that is the case. If I got it wrong, then my apologies. |
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| Nov-27-06 | | Nightranger: <chesstoplay: Dear Everybody, Are we allowed to bring in outside conversations about the position?> Yes. |
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| Nov-27-06 | | weisyschwarz: Does Shulman know we may discuss his thoughts? |
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| Nov-27-06 | | Artar1: Nightranger:
I really respect your opinion.
The problem is the vote count is killing any idea of an immediate 30.R1f2. It's like the majority of the players here are uncomfortable with the possibility of not capturing Black's g-pawn right away. Doing so gives Black more options and counterplay; that's what the G-MAN wants, and it appears that's what we are going to give him. 30.fxg6 is not a mistake. On the other hand 30.R1f2 solidifies our position before undertaking kingside operations. |
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Nov-27-06
| | Domdaniel: As for GMAN's attitude, it's too soon to know for certain. One point stands out: computer opponents are easier to predict, model and anticipate. A CC GM like Arno can tailor his play to beat the engine - just as Kramnik was doing until he came unstuck. We are a lot less predictable. Maybe he simply adopted the wrong plan, and finds himself stuck with it. A first assumption - weak-ish players with commercial engines - might have underrated us. It seems that 18.Qd2 got him thinking: neither an engine move nor a patzer move. One reading of his play since then is that he's trying to 'blitz' us into an error. Remember, early on, when people thought Black was taking too many liberties with development? The idea faded away when he finally got his pieces out, but you can still argue that Black has never equalized in this game. Engine evals (roughly +0.25 for Rybka, +0.75 for Fritz) tend to support this - while not *proving* anything. I suspect that Black's more tactical lines, if they materialize, will be bluff and desperation rather than a masterful winning stroke. Bluffs that might work, if we panic. But we shall see... |
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| Nov-27-06 | | Artar1: chesstoplay:
Come on chesstoplay, tell us; don't keep us waiting? |
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| Nov-27-06 | | Billosky: <Artar1: The problem is the vote count is killing any idea of an immediate 30.R1f2. It's like the majority of the players here are uncomfortable with the possibility of not capturing Black's g-pawn right away. Doing so gives Black more options and counterplay; that's what the G-MAN wants, and it appears that's what we are going to give him. 30.fxg6 is not a mistake. On the other hand 30.R1f2 solidifies our position before undertaking kingside operations.> That's just what I have been arguing in my last few posts here. We currently have the LUXURY of playing R1f2 before fxg6 because black cannot seize the initiative -- at least as far as I can see. We should thus strengthen our position by guarding the second rank and freeing our f1 rook from a possible later attack from the black queen before launching our K-side attack. Why leave black with a stronger position than we need to do? |
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Nov-27-06
| | Domdaniel: <chesstoplay> It was agreed early on that all such outside opinions are fine. GMAN had no problem with this, and Shulman's analysis is both welcome and within the rules. |
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| Nov-27-06 | | Artar1: I just voted for 30.R1f2. But I think the majority prefer the roller coaster to that of the merry-go-round. |
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| Nov-27-06 | | weisyschwarz: <Dom> earlier on you thought that this would be a long game. Do you still feel that way? Once we doubled the rooks I was counting the seconds. But with each move the landscape becomes a little less clear. Indeed, there is bluff taking place. He would love us to prolong the game. His tightly-wrapped, everything-protected Kan defense kept us on our end of the board for a while. I may be wrong: he doesn't want exchanges. He wants us not to do anything drastic, dramatic, draconian. He prefers the quiet waters. They lull, and soothe the soul. |
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| Nov-27-06 | | Nightranger: <Artar1> I understand. And I agree. |
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| Nov-27-06 | | chesstoplay: Sorry, I'm watching CSI with my wife who just had surgery. Artar1 and Domdaniel and everyone else, I apologize for being away for a bit. Yury went for the R1f2, f5xg6, Rf7 line. He didn't see the need to instantly break the pawn tension with f5xg6 first. |
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| Nov-27-06 | | Artar1: <chesstoplay: Yury went for the R1f2, f5xg6, Rf7 line. He didn't see the need to instantly break the pawn tension with f5xg6 first.> BINGO!
Well, that makes sense, but it won't change the vote count. I agree with Yury.
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| Nov-27-06 | | Nightranger: <chesstoplay: Sorry, I'm watching CSI with my wife who just had surgery.> Go watch TV with your wife!
Best wishes for speedy recovery.
Oh, yeah. Thanks. |
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| Nov-27-06 | | Artar1: OK everyone, as they would say on a submarine being pursued by a destroyer topside: "rig for depth charging!" |
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| Nov-27-06 | | Billosky: <Artar1: <chesstoplay: Yury went for the R1f2, f5xg6, Rf7 line. He didn't see the need to instantly break the pawn tension with f5xg6 first.
BINGO! Well, that makes sense, but it won't change the vote count. I agree with Yury> And now those of us who supported R1f2 can at least sleep a bit more soundly!!! I'm off to do so now. |
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