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Leinier Dominguez Perez vs Vassily Ivanchuk
"Gambling at the Casino" (game of the day Nov-19-2006)
Magistral Ciutat de Barcelona - Casino (2006), Barcelona ESP, rd 9, Oct-27
Modern Defense: Standard Defense (B06)  ·  1-0

ANALYSIS [x]

FEN COPIED

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Kibitzer's Corner
< Earlier Kibitzing  · PAGE 3 OF 3 ·  Later Kibitzing>
Oct-16-16  Al2009: <YouRang>

What do you analyze? Your suggestions are clearly WRONG. After 17...Qd7
White wins simply with 18. e6! (why 18. Qh4??) destroying Black's position and its White squares.

Oct-16-16
Premium Chessgames Member
  YouRang: <Al2009: <YouRang> What do you analyze? Your suggestions are clearly WRONG. After 17...Qd7 White wins simply with 18. e6! >

Okay, maybe I'm missing something. What do you have after <18.e6 Qe7 19.exf7+ Rxf7>?


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Oct-16-16
Premium Chessgames Member
  Once: Fritzie agrees with <Yourang>.

16. Nxe6 would indeed win for White if Black followed up with 16...Qxe6 17. f5 gxf5 18. Bxf5


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White has a tremendous kingside attack which ought to crash through.

Instead, Black should defend with 17... Qc8 or Qd7 which holds on to the piece.

Play might continue 14...Qd7 18. e6 Qe7 19. exf7+ Rxf7


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Fritzie calls this as a slight advantage to Black of -0.77. The problem for white is that the tempting 20. fxg6 plonks an impregnable white pawn on g6. And it is one of the cruelties of chess that you can't attack through your own piece. Then the White attack would stall and Black gets to play funky moves like Rf3 and Raf8.

Bottom line - 16. Nxf7 works (or is at least level but interesting) and 16. Nxe6 does not.

<YouRang> is right.

Oct-16-16
Premium Chessgames Member
  agb2002: White has a bishop and a knight for the bishop pair and a pawn.

Black threatens hxg5.

I've considered 16.Nxf7, 16.f5, 16.Nce4 and 16.Nge4. Only 16.Nxf7 seems to be promising:

A) 16... Qxf7 17.Rxg6 with the idea of piling up along the g-file and taking on h6 or e6. For example, 17... Qxf4+ 18.Kb1 Rae8 19.Rdg1 Re7 20.Rxh6 dxe5 21.Rh8+ Kf7 22.Qh5+ Kf6 23.Qg6#.

B) 16... Rxf7 17.Rxg6 with the same idea. For example, 17... Kf8 18.f5 Rxf5 (18... exf5 19.e6 + -) 19.Bxf5 exf5 20.e6 followed by Qxf5+ looks winning.

C) 16... Kxf7 17.Bxg6+ Kg8 (17... Ke7 18.Qh4#) 18.Bd3 Kf7 19.Rxg7+ Kxg7 20.Rg1+ Kf7 (20... Kh8 21.Qxh6+ Qh7 22.Qxh7#) 21.Bg6+ Kg8 (21... Kg7 22.Be8+ Kh7 23.Bxd7 Nxd7 24.Qxe6 + -) 22.Qxh6 Qg7 23.Bh7+ wins.

D) 16... h5 17.Ng5 with the double threat Bxg6 and Nxe6 looks winning for White.

That's all I can do today.

Oct-16-16  Rookiepawn: <al wazir: After 23. Qg6 Rf5, 24. Ne4 Qe3/Qxh2 25. Nf6 is unstoppable.>

Doesn't 24 ... Bxe4 stop it?

Oct-16-16  RandomVisitor: It seems that black asked for it after 12...Nxg4?! 13.Ng5 when white already had better chances


click for larger view

Komodo-10.1-64bit:

+0.62/34 13...f5 14.exf6 exf6 15.Nxh7 Kxh7 16.Rxg4 f5 17.Rg3 b4 18.Rdg1 Rf6 19.Nd1 Bh6 20.Kb1 Re8 21.Rh3 Nd5 22.Qf1 a5 23.Bd2 Rh8 24.c3 bxc3 25.bxc3 Nb6 26.Ne3 Kg7 27.Ka1 Kf8 28.Bb5 Qe7 29.Nc4 Nxc4 30.Bxc4 d5 31.Bb3 Re6 32.Qb5 c6 33.Qxa5 Kf7 34.Bc1 Re1

Unclear if it is safe to capture the pawn after 12...b4 13.Ne4 - the computer cannot find an attacking line in a shallow search


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Komodo-10.1-64bit:

0.00/29 12...b4 13.Ne4 Nxg4 14.Bd2 Nh6 15.Bxb4 Rab8 16.a3 Nf5 17.h4 Nd5 18.Bd2 Qa4 19.c4 Nb6 20.d5 e6 21.dxe6 Bxe4 22.Qxe4 Qb3 23.Bc2 Qa2 24.exf7+ Rxf7 25.Bc3 Nxc4 26.Bb1 Qb3 27.Bc2 Qa2

Oct-16-16
Premium Chessgames Member
  Dionysius1: Oy - whoever gave the subtitle to the game. Perez doesn't gamble that much at the board, and your choice was just a cheap use of the name of the event. The game doesn't have to have a subtitle - if people can't find a good one, just leave it alone, don't cheapen it, eh? Respects Dion
Oct-16-16  jvasea1990: 19 Rdg1 is a huge mistake becasue of 19...Bf3 = Evaluation 0,00 by brainfish
19. ... Bf3 20.Be2 Kh8 21.Bxf3 Qxf3 22.Qxf3 Rxf3 23.Rxg7 Raf8 24.a4 Rf1+ 25.Ka2 dxe5 26.dxe5 Rxg1 27.Rxg1 Nxa4 28.Nxa4 bxa4 29.Rg6 Kh7 30.Rxe6 Rf2 31.Re7+ Kg6 32.Re6+ Kh7
Oct-16-16  jvasea1990: and 20 R6g4 is a blunder. (+1,5)
better is 20 Ne2 (+3,5)
20.Ne2 Qd2 21.R1g5 Qxg5 22.Rxg5 dxe5 23.dxe5 Raf8 24.Rg6 Rf1+ 25.Nc1 R1f7 26.Qxe6 Bc8 27.Qc6 Re7 28.a4 Nc4 29.Bxc4 bxc4 30.Qxc4 Bf5 31.Rxa6 Rxe5 32.a5 Re4 33.Qc5 Rg4 34.Qxc7 Rc8 35.Rxh6+ Kg8 36.Qb7 Bxc2+ 37.Ka1 Ra4+ 38.Na2 Rcc4 39.Qd5+ Kf8 40.Qd8+ Kf7
Oct-16-16
Premium Chessgames Member
  Willber G: I saw 16.Nxf7 followed by 17.Rxg6 and it just looked 'right' to me. As usual I didn't analyse deeply enough to calculate all black's responses but I would have had no hesitation in playing it in a match (which is how I generally approach these puzzles). I no longer play but in my day tactical kingside attacks were my bag!
Oct-16-16  RandomVisitor: After 12.g4 b4 Komodo cannot find a forcing attack plan


click for larger view

Komodo-10.1-64bit:

+0.18/36 12...b4 13.Ne4 Nxg4 14.Bd2 Nh6 15.Bxb4 a5 16.Bd2 Bxe4 17.Bxe4 d5 18.Bd3 e6 19.Kb1 Rfb8 20.Ka1 Nf5 21.h4 Nc4 22.Bxc4 dxc4 23.Qxc4 h5 24.Qe2 Bh6 25.b3 a4 26.b4 c6 27.c3 Qd5 28.Qd3 a3 29.Rb1 Bg7 30.Rgd1 Qb5 31.c4 Qb6 32.Bc3 Qb7 33.b5 cxb5 34.Rxb5

Oct-16-16
Premium Chessgames Member
  YouRang: <Dionysius1: Oy - whoever gave the subtitle to the game. Perez doesn't gamble that much at the board, and your choice was just a cheap use of the name of the event. The game doesn't have to have a subtitle - if people can't find a good one, just leave it alone, don't cheapen it, eh? Respects Dion>

I agree that it is an awful pun (and not in the good way). But it was assigned nearly 10 years ago when this was the "Game of the Day", and before cg.com implemented the "pun suggestion" feature. Also, I can see the reluctance to break the tradition of always having a pun for the GOTD.

I suppose from time to time we have to expect the pun maker-upper to have an uninspired day.

Oct-16-16  Pinkerton: How about 37...Qxg6

38.Qxb6 Qf7 drawish

38.Qb8+ Bc8
39.Qxb6 Qe8 drawish

38.Qxb7 Qg1+
39.Ka2 Nc4
40.b3 Qc1 will it work?

Oct-17-16  Al2009: <Once + YouRang>

You and YouRang are WRONG, and you can SCRAP your useless "fritzie", and its ridicolus "-0.77" evaluation, which mean NOTHING, I'm not impressed by such numbers.

Of course I don't play 20. fxg6 (??)

After 20. Rxg6! White keeps a tremendous bind with his Rooks against g file, and the exposed King, (threatening also f6!). If 20...Rf6 (trying to trade the Rooks) then simply 21. Rg3! and after 22. Rdg1 Black cannot avoid to lose the Bishop (leaving White with a winning advantage of pawns and better position!).

For instance: 20...Rf6 21. Rg3! Kf8 22. Rdg1 Rf7 23. Rg6! and again Black cannot avoid that White pushes pawn to f6!

So, 16. Nxe6! is definitely a good move (better than 16.Nxf7?!) and you are incompetent, because it is clear that if 16. Nxf7 was working as a sac, 16. Nxe6! is a better sac, because it avoids the loss of f pawn and the check Qf4, since f pawn is very powerful to destroy Black's position after being pushed to f5 anf f6!

Oct-17-16  Al2009: <Once + YouRang>

A possible line (proving how correct is the sac 16. Nxe6!) can be after 20. Rxg6! Rf6 21. Rg3 Kf8 22. Rdg1 Rf7 23. Rg6! Nd7 (to avoid 23.f6) and then 24. Re6! Qd8 (forced) 25. Ne4! if 25...Nf6 26. Nxf6 Rxf6 27. Qg4! and Black's position collapses if 27...Qd7 28. Rxf6+ Bxf6 28. Qg8+ Ke7 29. Qh7+ and then mates, if 27...Rf7 28. f6! and wins

Oct-18-16
Premium Chessgames Member
  YouRang: <Al2009: <Once + YouRang> You and YouRang are WRONG, and you can SCRAP your useless "fritzie", and its ridicolus "-0.77" evaluation, which mean NOTHING, I'm not impressed by such numbers.

Of course I don't play 20. fxg6 (??)

After 20. Rxg6! White keeps a tremendous bind with his Rooks against g file, and the exposed King, (threatening also f6!). If 20...Rf6 (trying to trade the Rooks) then simply 21. Rg3! and after 22. Rdg1 Black cannot avoid to lose the Bishop (leaving White with a winning advantage of pawns and better position!).

For instance: 20...Rf6 21. Rg3! Kf8 22. Rdg1 Rf7 23. Rg6! and again Black cannot avoid that White pushes pawn to f6!

So, 16. Nxe6! is definitely a good move (better than 16.Nxf7?!) and you are incompetent, because it is clear that if 16. Nxf7 was working as a sac, 16. Nxe6! is a better sac, because it avoids the loss of f pawn and the check Qf4, since f pawn is very powerful to destroy Black's position after being pushed to f5 anf f6!>

Well, let's consider your line:


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<16.Nxe6 Qxe6 17.f5 Qd7 18.e6 Qe7 19.exf7+ Rxf7 20.Rxg6 Rf6 21.Rg3>


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Here, you continue with black playing <21...Kf8?>.

This is a poor choice for black considering that white threatens to double up rooks on the g-file. Black will have difficulty defending both the bishop and the sixth rank. Also, f8 might eventually be a good retreat square for the bishop since it still guards Ph6, whereas h8 would be awful.

Much better for black is <21...Kh8!>


click for larger view

Now, 22.Rdg1 may be met by 22...Rg8 (and a later ...Bf8 is possible).

Black is solid and remains up a piece, and likely winning.

Oct-18-16
Premium Chessgames Member
  thegoodanarchist: <morfishine: Incredible, I got all 53 moves>

Yes, but you also memorized every frame of the Zapruder film :)

Oct-19-16  Al2009: <YouRang> 21...Kh8? is twice worse than 21...Kf8 because it keeps Black King directly under the fire of heavy pieces.

After

22. Rdg1 Rg8 23. Ne2! and then 24.Nf4 wins immediately (threatens Ne6, or Ng6, or Nh5) If 22...Rf7 again 23. Ne2! and 24. Nf4

I think it would be honest to admit that 16. Nxe6! is a good move.

Oct-19-16  Al2009: <YouRang> The best I could find for Black, after 21...Kh8 22.Rdg1 Rg8 23. Ne2! is 23... Nd5

But now, after 24. b3! (to dislodge Nd5 after c4) Nb4 (24...b4 25. Bc4 and after BxN and Nf4 Black seems hopeless) 25. Nf4 Nxd3+ 26. cxd3 Bc8! (forced) 27. Nxg6+ Rxg6 28. Rxg6 Qf7! 29. R1g5! Kh7 30. Qh5! Bxf5 31. Rxh6+! Bxh6 32. Qxf7+ Rg7 33. Qxf5+ Kh8 34. h4! and wins

To summarize... Black is passive and pinned everywhere, so his material advantage is not enough to repair the position, which seems simply lost.

Oct-19-16
Premium Chessgames Member
  YouRang: <Al2009: <YouRang> The best I could find for Black, after 21...Kh8 22.Rdg1 Rg8 23. Ne2! is 23... Nd5 But now, after 24. b3! (to dislodge Nd5 after c4) Nb4 (24...b4 25. Bc4 and after BxN and Nf4 Black seems hopeless) 25. Nf4 Nxd3+ 26. cxd3 Bc8! (forced) 27. Nxg6+ Rxg6 28. Rxg6 Qf7! 29. R1g5! Kh7 30. Qh5! Bxf5 31. Rxh6+! Bxh6 32. Qxf7+ Rg7 33. Qxf5+ Kh8 34. h4! and wins

To summarize... Black is passive and pinned everywhere, so his material advantage is not enough to repair the position, which seems simply lost.>

~~~

Okay, after <16.Nxe6 Qxe6 17.f5 Qd7 18.e6 Qe7 19.exf7+ Rxf7 20.Rxg6 Rf6 21.Rg3 Kh8>


click for larger view

You have now added <22.Rdg1 Rg8 23.Ne2 Nd5 24.b3>


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But here, you have black playing <24...Nb4?>. Why would black do that? White played 23.Ne2, clearly with intent to play Nf4 and Ng6, and my Nd5 is preventing that.

Why move my knight now in fear of c4? It's far better to make you actually play c4 (which for me has the added benefit of weakening your king's defense).

My knight is strongly perched on d5 and it should stay there. Yes, black wishes to eliminate the Pf5, but fastest and best way is simply <24...Bc8!>, pinning it your queen. I see that you delayed ...Bc8 to move 26, *after* black mistakenly allowed you to play Nf4.

Now, I assume you will carry out your threat to dislodge my knight with <25.c4>, and then <25...bxc4>


click for larger view

Is this your plan? If so, I think you're losing badly.

Oct-20-16  Al2009: <YouRang>

Frankly speaking, you're now ANNOYING me...
After your move 24...Bc8 White can choose among several moves (25.Qh5/25.Qg2/25.Qg4) Probably the best is 25. Qh5 and if 25...Ne3 then 26. Nf4 threatening Ng6+

But, clearly YOU'RE MISSING THE POINT!

The point is that I suggested 16. Nxe6! as a better Knight sac than 16. Nxf7, bacause after the sac of the real game then Black played 17...Qxf4+ and after 18.Kb1 then Black missed a WINNING MOVE as 18...Nc4!! (avoiding Rf1 due to the check Nd2+) and after 19. Rdg1 Rf7 20.Rxh6 Kf8! Black wins

So, my move is for sure better, because it avoids the loss of f4 pawn and the strong White's attack. But it seems you want to stubbornly refuse to admit this, just for the sake of denying.

So, I cannot waste my time with you. Keep your ideas and find someone else to discuss with.

Oct-20-16
Premium Chessgames Member
  YouRang: <Al2009> <Frankly speaking, you're now ANNOYING me... >

I have no doubt. From the beginning of our discussion you've been acting like a person who takes offense at being proven wrong. There's actually no shame in being wrong if you (1) are willing to admit it, and (2) you manage to avoid insulting the people who were right, but you've fallen short on both accounts.

~~~~

<After your move 24...Bc8 White can choose among several moves (25.Qh5/25.Qg2/25.Qg4) Probably the best is 25. Qh5 and if 25...Ne3 then 26. Nf4 threatening Ng6+>

Okay, <25.Qh5>


click for larger view

Now you propose the horrible 25...Ne3?, which is bad for the same reason that your earlier 24...Nb4 was bad: it allows Nf4.

Instead, black should play the *obvious* <25...Bxf5>. Why did you think black played 24...Bc8 anyway? I assume it will continue <26.Bxf5 Rxf5>


click for larger view

You are down a full bishop with nothing to show for it. If you don't want to exchange queens, you're probably looking at 27.Qg4 and then 27...Rg5 blows your attack apart, and soon black will be on the offensive.

~~~~~

<But, clearly YOU'RE MISSING THE POINT!

The point is that I suggested 16. Nxe6! as a better Knight sac than 16. Nxf7, bacause after the sac of the real game then Black played 17...Qxf4+ and after 18.Kb1 then Black missed a WINNING MOVE as 18...Nc4!! (avoiding Rf1 due to the check Nd2+) and after 19. Rdg1 Rf7 20.Rxh6 Kf8! Black wins>

That's not the point at all. You are the one who confidently stated earlier: <Your suggestions are clearly WRONG. After 17...Qd7 White wins simply with 18. e6! >. That's the line we've been following since then, and you have white simply losing .

~~~~

So now you want to go back and find fault with <16.Nxf7>, claiming that black could have won after <16...Qxf7 17.Rxg6 Qxf4 18.Kb1> by playing <18...Nc4>. You add the comment: <after 19. Rdg1 Rf7 20.Rxh6 Kf8! Black wins>. Unfortunately, just about everything in your comment is wrong.

After <18...Nc4?>, white activates his knight with attack on black's queen via <19.Ne2 Qe3> (trying to prevent Qxh3) <20.Rg3> and black is toast.


click for larger view

~~~~~

<So, my move is for sure better, because it avoids the loss of f4 pawn and the strong White's attack. But it seems you want to stubbornly refuse to admit this, just for the sake of denying.>

I'll be willing to admit it when you demonstrate it. And if you're right, this is your chance to show your superior analysis. Go for it! But so far you are producing false claims and losing lines.

~~~~

<So, I cannot waste my time with you. Keep your ideas and find someone else to discuss with.>

Yep. I've been expecting you to run away like an embarrassed child, and there it is.

Oct-20-16
Premium Chessgames Member
  perfidious: <AI2009....Frankly speaking, you're now ANNOYING me....>

Reading this reminded me of a video game from the good old days (ca 1980), in which the machine had several droll comments, one of which was: 'you are beginning to annoy me'.

Oct-20-16
Premium Chessgames Member
  YouRang: <perfidious: <AI2009....Frankly speaking, you're now ANNOYING me....> Reading this reminded me of a video game from the good old days (ca 1980), in which the machine had several droll comments, one of which was: 'you are beginning to annoy me'.>

Interesting. Did it say that when it was losing? ;-)

Oct-20-16
Premium Chessgames Member
  perfidious: <YouRang> Do not recall, really; but when the game was done with, another one went: 'Sensor detects coin in pocket'. Still another was: 'Chicken! Fight like a robot!'.
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