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| Oct-18-08 | | ozmikey: Just shows, you should always look for the best continuation even if you find a good one. I (eventually) saw 19. Bc4, with the double threats of Nxh6+ and Rd5, couldn't see a real defence, and thought that was basically it. But of course, the sac after 19...Nf8 (even though 20. Rd5 should win quite comfortably) is crushing. |
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| Oct-18-08 | | cyclon: Very difficult to find kernel-moves were quiet Bc4 and later Qe4. Besides pinning the f7-pawn 19.Bc4 (-exf4 20.Nxh6+) clears the way for a white queen to transfer to the king-side via e4. Blocked Bc8 by Nd7 gives white `time` for this manoeuvre. I found Bc4 but NOT Qe4. It means that I did NOT fully comprehend the deeper aspects of excellent move 19.Bc4. |
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| Oct-18-08 | | ChessApplet: < Manic > aw thanks man,didn't see it. Guess I have to relax a bit and analyze carefully. |
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Oct-18-08
 | | chrisowen: Amazing stuff, I trained recently figuring out puzzles. Relax I thought, the knack is questioning the value of each piece but jeez it was too difficult. |
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| Oct-18-08 | | Woody Wood Pusher: I thought 19.Bxh6,gxh6 20.Nxh6+,Kf8 21.Nxf7,Kxf7 22.Bg6+ was winning I also though 19.Bxh6,g6 20.Nxe7,Rxe7 21.Bxg6,fxg6 22.Qxg6+,Kh8 23.Rxd7,Rxd7 24.Bg5 was winning as well could somebody check these with a computer for me? thanks. |
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| Oct-18-08 | | ThePawnOTron2: Of course I didn't get it! You know how I am with saturday puzzles! :-) --ThePawnOTron2 |
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| Oct-18-08 | | newzild: Too hard for me today.
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| Oct-18-08 | | kevin86: The key move was a misdirection-the bishop is actually better working SEPERATE from the queen.White wins brilliantly! |
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| Oct-18-08 | | Woody Wood Pusher: After 19.Bxh6,gxh6 20.Nxh6+,Kf8
21.Nxf7,Nf6! 22.Ng5,Rh8 = white has 3 pawns for the bishop but the position seem equal. 21.Nxf7,Kxf7? 22.Bg6+,Kg7 23.Bxe8,Nf8  (white has R+3P vs.B+N and exposed black king) |
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| Oct-18-08 | | Woody Wood Pusher: OMG this position is so complicated..
what happens after 19.Bc4,Nf8 20.Bxh6,g6
the best I got is
21.Nxe7,Rxe7 22.Bxf8,Kxf8 23.Bd5 but black might be able to hold on no? What is the absolute best play after 19.Bc4 for black? |
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| Oct-18-08 | | johnlspouge: Saturday (Very Difficult)
I Farago vs I Zaitsev, 1980 (19.?) White to play and win.
Material: Even. The Black Kg8 has 3 legal moves and is shielded behind Ps. White has a potential local superiority on the K-side, with his Nf5 and Bf4 already in the field and a battery Qc2 and Bd3 obscured by Nf5. The battery can control light squares, while Nf5 and Bf4 both attack Ph6, an obvious sacrificial target. The White Rb1 and Rd1 control semi-open and open files and can enter battle faster than the Black Q-side, with Ra8 and Bc8 bottled by Nd7. The Black Re8 is unprotected behind Be7. White should consider a sacrificial attack before Black completes his development or gets his Qa5 back into play. With undisputed control of the light squares, White needs to infiltrate with his Qc2 and control the dark squares on the Black K-side before Black can marshal a defense. As a default in close action, Ns are better than Bs, which explains the choice of candidate. Candidates (19.): Bxh6, Nxh6
19.Bxh6 gxh6 [else, drop a P]
I then went for
20.Bc4, which Toga II 1.3.1 claims is blunted by 20...e4. Toga recommends 20.Nxh6+, which appears to be winning on superficial analysis. The position is indeed extremely complicated. |
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| Oct-18-08 | | Woody Wood Pusher: There is some great analysis of this position in my forum (page 7), courtesy of <hms> |
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| Oct-18-08 | | TrueBlue: al wazir, Manic's line is bull, just consider 21. Qb3 in to it to see why. I am sure that al wazir line works |
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| Oct-18-08 | | TrueBlue: and Bc4 should be answered with Nf8, at which point I don't see the purpose of Bc4 ... |
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| Oct-18-08 | | PositionalTactician: TrueBlue: al wazir, Manic's line is bull, just consider 21. Qb3 in to it to see why. I am sure that al wazir line works TrueBlue: and Bc4 should be answered with Nf8, at which point I don't see the purpose of Bc4 ... Reply:
If you say the line is bad, show it. Don't just say your opinion without any evidence, as that just shows how empty your skull is. As to your question about the continuation after Bc4 Nf8, did you forget to look through the game continuation, or is it that you just don't want to face the truth? |
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| Oct-18-08 | | Manic: <TrueBlue> Please mind your manners. Yes, I see that 21.Qb3 is better now but don't give me this crap that my line is "bull." That's downright offensive. Perhaps you were spurred into action by my post which could have been seen as attacking <al wazir>, so I apologise if I offended you <al wazir>. Back to 21.Qb3, perhaps white is winning. I'm suggesting 21...Rf8 22.Nf5+ Kf6 and it looks promising for white but at the moment I can't see much in terms of an immediate attack. |
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| Oct-18-08 | | TrueBlue: <Manic>, the position is very complicated and your previous line doesn't seem optimal, (even Kg7 doesn't seem optimal to me). So I don't see how your line disproves <al wazir>, who, for all I can see, (sorry don't have a silicon monster to back me up), correctly identified that 19. Bxh6 is winning. |
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| Oct-18-08 | | MostlyAverageJoe: <al wazir> According to Hiarcs while 19.Bxh6 gxh6 20.Nxh6+ indeed is likely winning (+2.00), 19.Bxh6 Bf8 is unclear (+0.88) <Manic>'s line is indeed busted with 21.Qb3 (+5.10) 21...Rf8 22.Nf5+ Kf6 is even worse (+13.65) after 23.Qc4, threatening Qh4 or Qg4 with strong attack. More later ... |
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| Oct-18-08 | | TrueBlue: <MAJ>, what about this line?
19. Bc4 Nf8 20. Bxh6
gxh6 21. Qe4 Kh8, curious if it works for white ...
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| Oct-18-08 | | Dr. J: Could somebody refute 19 Bc4 exf4 20 Nxh6+ Kf8, e.g. 20 Qh7 Bc5 (or Ba3). Then 21 Bxf7 looks good but is it decisive? Is it best? |
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| Oct-18-08 | | MostlyAverageJoe: After 19. Bxh6 Bf8, the forward scan at 20 plies/move claims this as the best continuation: 20. Bg5 Nc5 21. Bc4 e4 22. Ng3 (+0.78)
The declining valuation as the analysis gets deeper indicates that a win is not very likely. Sliding back does not show improvements for white. If 19. Bxh6 wins, then the winning strategy is beyond the Hiarcs' horizon at the 20-ply settings (with the sliding analysis, more like 25 plies). <TrueBlue: <MAJ>, what about this line? 19. Bc4 Nf8 20. Bxh6 gxh6 21. Qe4 Kh8> Yes, it works for white. But black could have played 20...Qc7 (+0.85). And white could play earlier 20.Rxb7! (+1.73). More later ...
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| Oct-19-08 | | MostlyAverageJoe: < Dr. J: Could somebody refute 19 Bc4 exf4 20 Nxh6+ Kf8, e.g. 20 Qh7 Bc5>
click for larger view21. Nf5, mate in the next move. |
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| Oct-19-08 | | MostlyAverageJoe: After some serious backsliding, this appears to be the best line for both sides after 19. Bc4 Nf8 20. Rxb7 Bxb7 21. Nxh6+ gxh6 22. Qf5 Bd5 23. Bxd5 Qxd5 24. Rxd5 exf4 25. Qxf4 Rac8 26. Qxh6 Most of the above is forced. The resulting position is possibly winnable by white (+2.03), but I am not sure if it is attractive for human players. Perhaps it is a line for computers only. 
click for larger viewIt seems that black's best choice after 19.Bc4 was, after all, exf4, with the following, mostly forced sequence: <19. Bc4 exf4> 20. Nxh6+ gxh6 21. Qg6+ Kh8 22. Qxh6+ Kg8 23. Qg6+ Kh8 24. Bxf7 Qg5 25. Qxg5 Bxg5 26. Bxe8 Nf6
27. exf4 Bxf4 (+1.20)
click for larger view |
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| Oct-19-08 | | TrueBlue: <MAJ>, great analyzes, thanks! really complicated position this was. |
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| Oct-22-08 | | patzer2: For the Saturday Oct 19, 2008 puzzle, White secures a near decisive advantage with 19. Bc4!, which initiates a strong demolition of pawn structure combination in the line <19. Bc4 exf4> 20. Nxh6+! gxh6 21. Qg6+ Kh8 22. Qxh6+ Kg8 23. Qg6+ Kh8 24. Bxf7 Qg5 25. Qxg5 Bxg5 26. Bxe8 Nf6 27. exf4 Bxf4  given by <MAJ> above.I'm not certain White has a win in the final position given by <MAJ> in his last post, but it's clear White has all the winning chances and Black will have to fight hard to survive the endgame. |
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Kibitzing
sac: 20.Bxh6