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Later Kibitzing> |
| Jan-17-09 | | thomascrown: White missed(?!)34.Bh7+! immediately. |
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| Jan-17-09 | | KingG: I completely missed it. I was looking more at 31.Nxg7. Does that work at all? |
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| Jan-17-09 | | MiCrooks: Upon further review I stand by Rxg5 getting into this whole line being a mistake. Not that it might not work out okay in the end, though many of the lines are unclear. But because Bxg5 is just SO clearly winning already. |
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| Jan-17-09 | | MiCrooks: That is what I looked at. It doesn't lose anyway, but it is not clear that it wins either. Obviously Qxg7 is losing so Black needs to find something else. The immediate Bxf1 is losing to Nxe8 though there is still a long fight ahead. Qb6+ seems the best, as in the game Black gets the Queen defended with tempo so that lines with Qh7+ in them with the King on the 7th don't drop the Queen. Rf2 is the natural response and seems to lead to a slight advantage, but White can even try Kh1 allowing Bxf1 (best) when Nxe8 Rxe8 Bf6 (or Qg4) seems to lead to nothing better than a draw. (There isn't time for Qxe8 as Qf2 threatens mate and leads to a win for Black) After Rf2 Rxe5 is forced. After Qf7 Kh8 White has to do something about his back rank problems. White has a draw in hand with Qh5+ etc, but obviously should get better or not go into this line. h4 is a nice try as the "obvious" Re1+ is losing after Kh2. But Re2 and Black is going to be able to trade major pieces off leading to an interesting but unclear endgame, or if White doesn't like his chances with his 2B+N vs R+N+B where his connected passed pawns could be a big factor he can bail into the perpetual. That pretty much leads Bd2 if White wants to try to play for an advantage. Re2 once again seems to be Blacks best try, but here White seems to get better with Bc3. Qxf2+ is the only move, but after Qxf2 Rxf2 now White has Nf5+ and he is in a better version of that endgame, down and exchange but here he should win the d pawn having an advantage with his passed g and h pawns. So, yes you can play Nxg7, but it certainly is not a great response. |
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| Jan-17-09 | | MostlyAverageJoe: < MiCrooks: Given how hard Bf6 is for the computer to find> Actually, it isn't.
Deep Shredder 11 takes 20 seconds to find it, and Hiarcs 12.1MP finds it in about 3 seconds (granted, I run both on 8 cores :-). This is not even close to the computing effort that would qualify this puzzle for the inclusion in Game Collection: Puzzles that make engines sweat. Incidentally, the engine evaluations for Nxg7 seem to indicate that it might be slightly better than Ne7+, but I did not put enough effort into the analysis to be sure about it. |
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| Jan-17-09 | | ozmikey: Damn! I was perfectly happy with 31. Ne7+, and even congratulating myself on calculating 31...Rxe7 32. Rxf8+ Kxf8 33. Bg6 Qb6+ 34. Kh1 Qxg6(??) 35. Bxe7+ Kf7 36. e6+. I totally missed the simple 34...Qe6. |
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| Jan-17-09 | | talfan: I spotted Bf6 almost imediatelly, but I didn't had any skills to prove it was the best move (And sleepness spoilt my habilities even more). Actually I think it is a pretty obvious first move, but the follow up is head spinning. |
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| Jan-18-09 | | viky: My continuation is as follows..
31 Nd6 with the plan to play Nf7 and Qh8..
if black plays 31 .. Rxe5? 32 Nf7 and Qh8 cannot be stopped without queen sac Okay so what is the best defence?
I will see how it continued... |
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| Jan-18-09 | | viky: oh i got it wrong.. black can just take rook on 31 Nd6 Bxf1
.. |
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Jan-18-09
 | | Richard Taylor: OK I missed 34. ... Qe6 but my comment still stands. A lot of people on here are obviously "solving" the problem by simply turning on a computer whereas I try to calculate the moves "mentally" so to speak. That said I only spent few minutes on this position. In an OTB game I would have spent a lot more time calculating - I would have been tempted by Ne7+ though... Even though I didn't see the 34. ... Qe6 defence I at least had the ideas...(I would have found 34 ...Qxb6 35. Bxe7+ of course). My serious point is that by really attempting to calculate these positions AND making errors one learns much much more than by using computers... Now I have used Fritz on occasion to check things like this or my own games but the problem of the day isn't a priority for me. I think players learn much more by analysing on their own rather than slavishly following a computer - and many chess teachers agree with me. I use Fritz to check some of my games but mostly just have WinBoard going and and analyse - I then leave it warts and all (after all it is me learning or having fun I'm not writing a book) - I'm well aware that a stronger player or a comp would find more moves but for me it is better to act within my limits so to speak... I thus have my own view - wrong or not. Given time I would have found all the moves but it's really not worth it... (the time I mean). |
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Jan-18-09
| | Richard Taylor: <MostlyAverageJoe: <Richard Taylor: What's the point of using Fritz> As you've been already told twice, the point is to check for mistakes. As all other known engine users, I always spend time trying to figure out the puzzles without any help (other than my son). On the other hand, what's the point of posting an already-disproved long line, wasting space with uninteresting positions and and proclaiming a win for white after an obvious blunder in this position: > >Because I like doing it (I like seeing the pictures!) - I - perhaps unlike you - try to form my own conclusions. Without an engine to hold my hand. As it happens I made some calculation errors but so what? That is why I put my (actually pretty quick) analysis on here... I only look at some of the other analysis - I like to attempt these on my own... Are you the character who was always sniping at me some time back? |
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| Jan-18-09 | | Once: <Richard Taylor: A lot of people on here are obviously "solving" the problem by simply turning on a computer.> A lot of people? Really? As far as I can see, most folks here start by trying to solve puzzles just as you describe - by eye using nothing more than human calculation. If we had "lots of people" using computers you would expect to see far more correct solutions and fewer mistakes. Most people use computers in the kibitzing to investigate interesting lines. And then we're generally honest enough to say when we have computer assistance. But what's the problem anyway? If someone does try to solve the problem only by using a computer, then more fool them. You or I have lost nothing by it. This is not a competition, right? |
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Jan-18-09
| | Richard Taylor: <Once> You don't know what you are talking about - of course they are all cheating. Only a few can actually calculate variations...
Switch off you computer - Fritz or whatever - and then just work form your own abilities for a month. You and others who do this will learn something. |
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| Jan-19-09 | | Once: <Richard Taylor> You seem very angry about something, as if the whole world is against you. Doesn't seem particularly healthy or a pleasant place for you to be. Shame. But congratulations on being the second person to find your way onto my ignore list. Hope you like it in there. The only other occupant has a fondness for fuit. |
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Sep-20-09
 | | tpstar: [Fritz 7]: 1. e4 e6 2. d4 d5 3. Nd2 Nf6 4. e5 Nfd7 5. Bd3 c5 6. c3 Nc6 7. Ne2 cxd4 8. cxd4 f6 9. exf6 Qxf6 10. Nf3 h6 11. 0-0 Bd6 12. Ng3 0-0 13. Bc2 Rd8 14. Re1 Nf8 15. Ne5 Bd7 16. f4 Be8 17. Be3 Qh4 18. Rf1 [White prepares f5] Ne7 19. f5 Bxe5 [last book move] 20. dxe5 exf5 21. Rf4 Qg5 22. Qf3 Neg6 23. Rxf5 Qe7 24. Rf1 Ne6 [24 ... Bb5!? 25. Rxf8+ Nxf8  ] 25. Rh5 Ng5? [25 ... Qb4 26. Nf5 Rd7 27. Bb3  ] 26. Rxg5 [26. Bxg5 secures victory hxg5 27. Nf5 Qxe5 28. Rxg5 ] hxg5 [ ] 27. Nf5 Qc7 28. Bb1 Bb5? [28 ... Nf4 29. Qg4 Bb5 30. Qxg5 Bxf1 31. Bxf4 Rd7 ] 29. Qh5 Nf8 [29 ... Be8 ] 30. Bxg5 [30. e6 Bxf1 31. e7 Qe5 32. exf8=Q+ Kxf8 33. Bc5+ Kg8 34. Ne7+ Qxe7 35. Bxe7 ] Re8?? [30 ... Rd7 31. e6! White forges ahead Qb6+ 32. Kh1 Qxe6 ] 31. Bf6! Qb6+ [31 ... gxf6 32. Nh6+] 32. Kh1 Bxf1 33. Nh6+ gxh6 [33 ... Kh8 34. Nf7+ Kg8 35. Qh8+ Kxf7 36. Qxg7+ Ke6 37. Qg4+ Kf7 38. Qh5+ Kg8 39. Bh7+ Nxh7 40. Qg6+ Kf8 41. Qg7#] 34. Qg4+ [34. Bh7+! Nxh7 35. Qg6+ Kf8 36. Qg7#] Kf7 [=] 35. Qg7+ Ke6 36. Qg4+ Kf7 37. Qh5+ Kg8 38. Bh7+!! 1-0.French Tarrasch with 9 ... Qxf6 rather than 9 ... Nxf6, then 12 Ng3 is the most common system = Opening Explorer One key question is whether Black can open the center with ...e6-e5, thus 13. Bc2 (so the Queen can pressure d5) Rd8 (defending the Pd5 while clearing f8 for a Knight). 15. Ne5! works due to 15 ... Nxe5?! 16. fxe5 Bxe5 17. Nh5: 
click for larger viewBlack can get a second Pawn for the piece with 17 ... Bxh2+ 18. Kxh2 but had better not chase a third with 18 ... Qxf2?! due to 19. Qg4 g6 20. Bxg6 or 19 ... g5 20. Bxg5! and Black gets killed. White should have an improvement over 24. Rf1 as 24 ... Bb5 hits the Rf1 while threatening 25 ... Nh4 winning the exchange. This game was used as a Saturday puzzle so other posts mention the quicker win with 26. Bxg5 hxg5 27. Nf5 Qxe5 28. Rxg5: 
click for larger viewIt was already pointed out that White had Mate in Three with 34. Bh7+! Nxh7 35. Qg6+ Kf8 36. Qg7# but reloaded that motif with 37. Qh5+ Kg8 (37 ... Ke6 38. Bf5#) 38. Bh7+! mating. |
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| Apr-08-11 | | Sololoy: The winning move 38 Bh7+ could have been done earlier: 34 Bh7+. Sometimes good players do not have all the variations in mind and they go constructing them as they play. |
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| Apr-17-14 | | Conrad93: 9...Nxf6 gives black a good position. 9...Qxf6 is just the worse variation. |
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| Apr-17-14 | | N0B0DY: is here to learn. |
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| Apr-17-14 | | Conrad93: How do you learn something you already know? |
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| Apr-17-14 | | Conrad93: The f6 idea was popularized and worked on by Uhlmann. |
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| Apr-17-14 | | N0B0DY: might have known it. |
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| Jun-19-15 | | SpiritedReposte: <Motylev Cocktail> |
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| Mar-22-19 | | ChessHigherCat: Damned knight on f8 kept thwarting all my plans. The only way to get rid of it is play N+ and take it with the rook. Anyway, if this isn't right I expect to be reimbursed for all the time I wasted calculating: 31. Ne7+ Rxe7 32. Rxf8+ Kxf8 33. Bg6 with "mat imparable" as they say in Froglandia. |
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| Mar-22-19 | | ChessHigherCat: Yikes, I missed the sneaky 33...Qb6+ -> Qe6 manure, making it possible to interpose the white queen Qh8+. Still, SF initially said advantage white, but then it ended up finding a draw. 1) +0.61 (26 ply) 32.Rxf8+ Kxf8 33.Bg6 Qb6+ 34.Kh1 Qe6 35.Qh8+ Qg8 36.Qh4 Rae8 37.Qf2+ Rf7 38.Qc5+ Ree7 39.Qxb5 
click for larger view39...Black to play and draw |
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| Mar-22-19 | | ChessHigherCat: Correction: making it possible to interpose the black queen on g8 after Qh8+. |
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Kibitzing
sac: 26.Rxg5