< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 2 OF 2 ·
|Oct-10-10|| ||LIFE Master AJ: 20...Kf8. (Why?)|
|Oct-10-10|| ||LIFE Master AJ: I would have played 20...Nc6.|
|Oct-10-10|| ||aragorn69: Black was probably trying to avoid Nxh7 ideas...|
|Oct-10-10|| ||AGOJ: Without an engine, I imagine 20...Nc6 21.Re1+ Kf8 22. Ne6+ Bxe6 23.Re6 (threat: Bh6+) Qg7 24.d7 (threat: Bd6+) and Black should lose.|
|Oct-10-10|| ||CHESSTTCAMPS: White is down two pawns for a powerful attack. In addition to active kingside pieces, white has the d6 pawn in position to support attacking pieces on the 7th rank. Black is substantially undeveloped, with the king vulnerable in the middle. This suggests that white should press the attack on the open e-file. Very soon after seeing the puzzle, I liked the idea of a forcing exchange sacrifice to accelerate the attack:|
16.Re1 Ne4+ 17.Rxe4! Qxe4 18.Ng5!
The point - black's queen has almost no squares available and white's having all the fun.
A) 18... Qe5 19.Bf4 Qg7 20.Qe2+ Kd8 21.Be5 wins a whole rook (21... Qg8 22.Bxh8 Qxh8? 23.Nf7+)
A.1) 19... Qxc3 20.Qe2+ Kd7 (Kd8/f8 allows mate in 1/2) 21.Qe7+ Kc6 22.Qc7+ Kb5 (Kd5 23.Bg2+ Kc4 24.Rc1) 23.a4+ Kc4 (Ka6 24.Bf1+ forces mate) 24.Rc1 wins the queen.
A.2) 19... Qf6 20.Qe2+ Kf8 21.Re1 Bd7 22.Qc4! (full mobilization) Nc6 23.Ne6+ Bxe6 24.Rxe6 Qg7 (Qf7 25.Bh6+ Kg8 26.d7! Qxd7 27.Rd8#) 25.d7! Qxd7 24.Bh6+ Kf7 25.Rd6+ wins the queen with a winning position.
A.3) 20... Kf8 21.d7! Qxd7 (N/Bxe7 22.Be6+ Kc7/b8 23.Qc4+ wins) 22.Rd1 is crushing.
B) 19... Qc6? 20.Qe2+ Kf8 21.Qe7+ Kg8 22.Qf7#
C) 19... Qc4 20.Qe1+ Kd7 21.Qe7+ Kc6 22.Qc7+ Kd5 (Kb5 23.Bf1) 23.Bg2+ wins the queen.
D) 19... (other) puts the queen en prise or allows 20.Nxd4.
There may be improvements for white in A.2, but it seems to me that the attack plays itself.
|Oct-10-10|| ||goodevans: <LIFE Master AJ: 20...Kf8. (Why?)|
... I would have played 20...Nc6.>
After <20 ... Nc6> cannot answer <21 Re1+> with <21 ... Kd7> because of <22 Ne4> followed by <23 Nxc5+>, whilst <21 Re1+ Kd8 22 Nf7+ Kd7 23 Nxh8> drops a whole rook <23 ... Qxh8?? 24 Qf7+> without doing anything to slow white's attack.
Black's going to have to play <... Kf8> anyway so it makes no odds whether he plays it before Re1 or after.
|Oct-10-10|| ||CHESSTTCAMPS: 20.Qd5 seems to save a tempo over 20.Qe2 in my line A.2. I will check later to see if black can hold with better defense than I found, but white's position seems overwhelming even without the sharpest play. |
BTW, I agree with <AGOJ>'s line - white has too many threats and the king will have to go to f8 anyway.
|Oct-10-10|| ||CHESSTTCAMPS: I see that <goodevans> got there first with a more detailed answer.|
|Oct-10-10|| ||David2009: F Peralta vs R Reinaldo Castineira, 2008 White 16?|
Bizarre position. White has sacrificed two Pawns to trap his own King in the centre. He may as well be hung
for a sheep as for a lamb with 16 Re1 Ne4+ 17 Rxe4 Qxe4 18 Ng5 Qc4 (the most active square preventing White's Qb3)
19 Qe1+ Kd7 forced 20 Qe7+ Kc6 and White has all the fun. I can't reliably analyse to mate - too far ahead for my reliable vision - but White has several possibilities.
This is what I would play over the board hoping for the best. Time to check the game and set the position up on Crafty End Game
Well, I got some of it but missed the best reply to 18... Qc4. When editing my original kibitz I deleted the sentence "FIRST THOUGHT: 16 Re1 Ne4+ 17 Rxe4 Qxe4 18 Ng5 Qc4 19 Bf1 Qb6 20 Bc4. This must be nonsense, White is too undeveloped for this to work". In fact in this line 20 Qe1+! (instead of 20 Bc4?) mates/ wins the Q very cheaply since Black has blocked b6.
Fernando Peralta (2574) and Eduardo Peralta (2330) (yesterday) are different players.
Crafty End Game Trainer link to the puzzle position:
click for larger view
(F Peralta vs Castineira 2008, 16?)
Crafty EGT finds the game defence up till move 21, then varies with 21...Nc6 which postpones mate at the expense of massive material loss. Enjoy finding the win!
|Oct-10-10|| ||rapidcitychess: I so got this. Kinda. :) I didn't see it all the way through, but I would play this in a heartbeat.|
<dzechiel:<The description "Insane" does not do this position justice. Chessgames needs some stronger adjective like "Super-Wallapalooza Difficult." I'm turning my computer off.>>
Really? I found it a <fuzz> weaker than the usual.
|Oct-10-10|| ||WhiteRook48: dang it i tried 16 bxf5 followed by ng5|
|Oct-10-10|| ||Patriot: It's easy to rule out checks since 16.Qa4+ helps black develop with 16...Bd7 or 16...Nc6. White needs to act quickly before black develops or simply go down in flames with a two pawn deficit for the bishop pair.|
At first I thought 16.Re1 Ne4+ 17.Kg2 doesn't look right and started looking at 16.Ng5 to stop this. But after a while, 16...Qd5 is the move that I didn't like.
So eventually I started looking at 16.Re1 Ne4+ 17.Rxe4 Qxe4 18.Ng5. On 18...Qc4 19.Bf1 Qg8 20.Qe1+ looks like a winning attack. So the problem seemed to be 18...Qe5 19.Bf4 Qf6 and I looked at 20.Qd5 but things started to get cloudy although white has a lot of compensation for being down a few pawns and the exchange.
I'm surprised I got that far on something that is "insane". For sure, there are a lot of variations to examine.
I had to laugh at <dzechiel>'s description of the puzzle which is true. It is tough!
|Oct-10-10|| ||Brandon plays: I was completely off for this entire puzzle. This is insanely hard.|
|Oct-10-10|| ||CHESSTTCAMPS: I decided to test my A.2 line against the Crafty EGT link put up by <David2009>. I actually didn't mess it up as I usually do on my first attempt. The game went as follows:|
16.Re1 Ne4+ 17.Rxe4 Qxe4 18.Ng5 Qe5 19.Bf4 Qf6 20.Qe2+ (varying from the puzzle game) Kf8 21.Re1 Bd7 22.Qc4 b5 (Crafty plays a line I had considered but did not include in my solution post) 23.Qd5 Nc6
click for larger view
24.Ne6+ Kg8 25.Bh6!! Qf7 26.Bg2 Re8 27.Ng5 Re6 28.Nxf7 and white won.
|Oct-10-10|| ||goldenbear: I spent most of my time looking at Bh6 but I came to the conclusion that the variation Ng4+ Bxg4 fxg4 Re1 (winning the queen) probably favored Black. Then I looked at Re1 which looks like a puzzle answer because of all the pins, and decided that's what I'd "play". Worn out, I never made it to the follow-up Rxe4, but I think in a real game I would have seen it. With that kind of material deficit, it's a question of figuring out how I kind make all of my pieces do something before my opponent develops. There is no use worrying about the exchange. Good puzzle, not my best effort.|
|Oct-10-10|| ||thegoodanarchist: Well, today's puzzle is rated "insane".
I only got the first move, so I suppose I am just partially insane :)
|Oct-10-10|| ||Jimfromprovidence: First of all, as far as Iím concerned, anyone who saw both 20 Qd5 (instead of 20 Qe2+ or 20 Qd2 or 20 Qd3) and 22 Re7 (instead of 22 Be5) should quit their day jobs and become chess pros.|
As far as 20...Nc6 instead of the text 20...Kf8 goes, there's this great combination (courtesy of Rybka freeware) beginning with 21 Re1+ Kf8 22 d7 Bxd7 23 Qxd7 Rd8.
click for larger view
Now comes 24 Ne6+ Kg8 25 Nxd8 Qxd8 26 Re8+! Qxe8 27 Qxe8+.
click for larger view
|Oct-10-10|| ||DarthStapler: I got the first 3 moves|
|Oct-10-10|| ||tivrfoa: It was not a hard insane. It's a normal Sunday, maybe Saturday. It doesn't mean that I was able to find it. Nice game.|
|Oct-10-10|| ||JeanGiskan: Wow. Vladimir is back. The victor of chess legend Garry Kasparov started with a win over Magnus Carlsen, just to tactically outplay world s best tactician; Alexei Shirov in round 2 of a tournament which is considered the strongest tournament of all times (so far)|
|Oct-10-10|| ||wals: I fiddled with Re1, thought Black would be superior and opted for Ng5.
So I was wrong, but your always wrong, that's not true, I solved one last year, so you say. o shut up.|
Rybka 4 x 64 analysis
depth 19 : 34 min :
1. (4.39): 16.Re1 0-0 17.Rxe6 Bxe6 18.Ng5 Bf7 19.Bg2 Nbd7 20.Bxb7 Rab8 21.Bg2 Rb6 22.Nxf7 Rxf7 23.Kg1 Kg7 24.Bf4 h6 25.Qe2 Rb8 26.Qe6 Rbf8 27.Rb1
2. (1.21): 16.Ng5 Qc4 17.Bg2 Ne4+ 18.Nxe4 fxe4 19.Bh6 Qf7+ 20.Kg1 Bf5 21.g4 Be6 22.Qd2 Qd7 23.Rf1 Kd8 24.Bg5+ Kc8 25.Bxe4 Re8 26.Qe3 Nc6 27.Qxc5 Bg8 28.Bxc6 bxc6
|Oct-10-10|| ||Fezzik: I actually would have played this sac! I got the first four moves but missed 20.Qd5. I wonder how far Peralta saw.|
|Oct-10-10|| ||waustad: <jean>This is probably not the place you meant to put this. It's totally appropriate on the Bilbao page.|
|Oct-11-10|| ||patzer2: For yesterday's difficult Sunday puzzle solution, White forces a decisive exchange sacrifice with 16. Re1!!|
The purpose of this maneuver is to force the exchange sacrifice and make Black give up his only actively posted minor piece, so
White can actively place his pieces to menace the poorly defended Black King and awkwardly placed Black Queen.
After 16. Re1!! Ne4+ 17. Rxe4 Qxe4 18. Ng5! White's attack is overwhelming. It's a combination computers calculate quickly, but apparently even strong human players find difficult.
I would have played the combination OTB, however for me it would have been a gambit based on intuition in assuming the massive accumulation of White pieces would give White a decisive attack.
|Oct-12-10|| ||njchess: I guess I'm in the minority here. I thought this was a relatively straightforward Sunday puzzle, which I "solved" in seconds. So fast, I immediately thought I had missed something. After rechecking the position, I became convinced that my immediate analysis was correct.|
The candidate moves were 16. Ng5 or Re1. The open e-file with Black's king and queen on it made Re1 very attractive despite Black's counter of Ne4+. Initially I didn't like the idea of trading rook for a knight, but I became convinced that because Black's queen was exposed to attack, the position gave White such a gain in tempo that it made for an unstoppable attack.
After moves such as Ng5, Bf4, Qd5 and Re1, Black would have trade more material, most likely his queen, to stop the attack if that was possible. The only real counterplay I found for Black was h6, which White could ignore.
As for the game, Black eschews development instead for debatable, minor positional gains. The net effect is to remove his active pieces from the board giving White a huge early mid-game advantage. As of move 14. ... Bxc3, Black moved his queen three times, his bishop twice and the other nine moves were with pawns. White correctly reads the position and seizes the initiative with an all-out attack on Black's king. Nicely done.
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