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Sep-04-12 | | torrefan: Alright, then, Georgiev's King was under tremendous pressure but Georgiev felt it not. |
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Sep-04-12 | | lorker: <torrefan> The thing is his king was not under tremendous pressure. It was in some danger, but tremendous pressure is a drastic overstatement given that Barbosa was completely lost. |
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Sep-04-12
 | | OBIT: Oh, Kiril's king wasn't in any danger. In fact, I think the position after move 56 makes for an interesting puzzle: Question: After 56...Nxf4, find the only losing move for White that doesn't involve putting the queen or bishop en prise? Answer: 57. Qe7! |
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Sep-04-12 | | torrefan: Then this is a miraculous game! Barbosa was "COMPLETELY lost" yet he won! I also agree, kiril's King was not under tremendous pressure. It was his Queen! And when kiril saw he was about to lose his queen (and his king, of course, next), he resigned! Now say these again:
1. Kiril wasn't under pressure
2. His King wasn't under pressure
3. Barbosa was COMPLETELY lost
4. yet Kiril, his person and his pieces under no pressure whatsoever and has completely won, resigned. |
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Sep-05-12
 | | OBIT: Torrefan, I hate to be critical of someone whose handle expresses his admiration of the great Philippino GM, but your comment is kind of flippant. Barbosa can be given some credit for surviving as many moves as he did, but his victory was a fluke more than anything else. Fluke wins do happen once every several hundred games or so, and when they occur they get published all over the place, to the extreme embarrassment of the poor GM who botched the game so badly. It's a wonder more GMs don't commit suicide. |
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Sep-05-12 | | Pulo y Gata: <perfidious: The comments by <Pulo y Gata> are disingenuous, smacking of the old 'annotation by result' school, when it is clear that in the position where Georgiev blundered, he was in no way under 'enormous pressure': rather, after a normal continuation, White had whatever chances there were.
A pox on fanboy rubbish-here's to some objectivity!> Perfidious, your comment smacks of ignorance of the pressure of playing competitively. Chess is a test of nerves, too, as Bronstein said. How would one explain Georgiev's blunder if he was not feeling pressured playing an imbalanced position? And perfidious, I can assure you that I can play and annotate at a decent level, so don't rush on the fanboy tag. <OBIT> Of course, I am not making an excuse for the good GM (Georgiev), I was making a conjecture based on what transpired. Your comment <I expect most class C players will solve it in less time than Georgiev had on his clock.> falls on the same vein as <Perfidious>'s, totally disregarding that during the game, and perhaps even before, these players labor to win or get an advantageous position. What's more flippant my "pressure" conjecture or your "gift-wrapping" comment? |
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Sep-05-12 | | torrefan: Obit, I hate to engage in a lively debate with one whose handle connotes death, but do you really know what a "fluke" is? A fluke is "a lucky accident." (Oxford dictionary). Are you saying Georgiev lifted his Q, intending to put it elsewhere, but because he was then eating greasy French fries, the Q accidentally slipped and landed at e7? C'mon. Barbosa was a very strong player. Strong enough to give Georgiev difficulties, pressure him, tire him, mislead him, etc.--and a combination of all these made Georgiev blunder. |
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Sep-05-12 | | ashalpha: Barbi got lucky in a completely lost position after 50...Ra8?, as any player of any type will tell you it can happen. Usually more at the clubhouse level but when you are winning so obviously you sometimes let your guard down or does no Filipino remember this game: W So vs A Giri, 2010 ? Completely winning in a time scramble, Wesley chose the only losing line. It happens rarely at this level but it does happen, if you were looking for a reason then you don't really have to look far (overconfidence or playing on opponent's time). Georgiev already started to lose the thread with 56. Qxg5 (losing coordination of his pieces), when Barbosa had a glimmer of a chance to set up a fortress with his rooks in the seventh rank. For example 57. c5 (relatively best) Re1 58. Bd5 Nxd5 59. Qxd5 Re7. The pawns can go nowhere against the rooks in the seventh rank. There might be better lines for White with computer analysis but the win after 56. fxg5 is certainly a lot easier to win. |
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Sep-05-12
 | | OBIT: Actually, "OBIT" is a reference to a 1963 Outer Limits episode about a network of computers that spy on the general public, which eerily reminds me of the modern day Internet. So, if you say my handle connotes paranoia, I'd have to agree, but not death. And with that clarification out of the way... As for Barbosa getting lucky, yes, I would say that. I'd say more, but <ashalpha> just made the same points I would have made. Even GMs can fall into the trap of thinking, "Nothing's gonna happen! Nothing can possibly go wrong..." |
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Sep-05-12 | | Pulo y Gata: <asphalpa> In the So-Giri game you cited. You have to remember that GM So had some choices before he made the howler: click for larger viewBasically, he could have given up his Queen for a winning position, but, usually, players would rather retain it, as So did. He blundered with 32. Ne2 and allowed a mate in two. But is this mainly a result of relaxing his guard? GM Giri was throwing his pieces at him before the blunder, didn't the ferocious, if unsound, attack play a role in making So crack? But let's not drag the carcass, I'll concede and rephrase my earlier statement: "GM Georgiev, winning and having more time in his clock than his opponent, could not handle the 'enormous pleasure'." |
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Sep-06-12 | | ashalpha: Pulo y Gata, 32.Ne2?? was practically the only losing move. Both of the viable moves 32. Qxd1 and the weaker 32. Qxf4 both win. |
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Sep-06-12 | | Pulo y Gata: <asphalpha> It's so simple in hindsight and without you actually feeling the pressure OTB, right? You'd rather ignore the point I am trying to make about the pressure of OTB play, I see. Then Wesley So succumb to the pleasure of his winning position, too, just like Georgiev. |
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Sep-06-12
 | | perfidious: < Pulo y Gata: ....your comment smacks of ignorance of the pressure of playing competitively....> Since I played at master level for twenty years before retiring, I wouldn't know anything about playing competitively......ha ha ha! |
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Sep-06-12 | | torrefan: Indeed, when I come, I sometimes forget myself too. |
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Sep-06-12 | | ashalpha: Don't you read profiles Pulo y Gata? I played tournament chess and I have blundered when completely winning under time pressure and without. Everyone does, it doesn't change the fact that it was a blunder. |
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Sep-07-12 | | Pulo y Gata: <perfidious> I know, I checked your profile. Still, compared with <OBIT> who only argued with my observation, you attacked me and called me a fanboy. I was positing that Georgiev succumbed to pressure, a conjecture you clearly don't share. Does your being a master make your conclusions always correct? Why do you think Georgiev blundered and did not find the "normal continuation" as you said? What is a normal continuation, by the way? <asphalpa> Haven't you read my posts above? And, yes, I checked your profile, too. I think you're not arguing against my point but making your own conclusions, so we have nothing to talk about. |
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Sep-07-12 | | torrefan: I say the so-called blunders are part of the unsolvable mysteries in chess because finding out their causes would need delving into the inner recesses of the mind. Of course, out of pride, players who blunder (or their fans/supporters) would always save face by saying things like they became overconfident, etc. |
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Sep-07-12 | | rapidcitychess: Blunders most likely are related in some way to boy bands. You heard it here first. |
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Sep-07-12 | | ashalpha: :-)...all blunders are blunders regardless of the circumstance that is how we get better trying to learn. I think Barbosa will be the first to tell you that he got lucky plain and simple. My first win against a FIDE Master was in a technically lost position when he overlooked a simple King move. I got lucky. This article by a Filipino writer (by the way I am also Filipino if you haven't realized that yet) is a more objective observation with a quote from Wesley So: http://www.journal.com.ph/index.php.... I read your posts that is why I am arguing your point about "pressure" or "pleasure" at a winning position (which I gave as another explanation to losing or sometimes drawing in a non-pressure situation but I don't think it applies here). I watched this game live in the internet, with the times for both players displayed, and the position. Georgiev started playing on his opponent's time, a bad mistake from a veteran player (you can see that because his time actually started to increase with the 30 second increments). Playing tournament chess you only do that if you are a.) confident in your winning position and b.) to pressure your opponent in time trouble into a mistake. It backfired because he was the one who didn't properly calculate a tactical sequence, choosing the only losing move. As far as the pleasure in a winning position, it is a state of mind. Kramnik, for example, admits in interviews that he has trouble actually winning technically won endgames but is very strong when trying to convert a small endgame advantage to a win. I relax too much when I can see I am winning which with my endgame technique (especially rook endings) are the reason I probably won't progress past Master. |
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Sep-11-12 | | Pulo y Gata: <asphalpa> <all blunders are blunders regardless of the circumstance that is how we get better trying to learn.> I agree, but I don't think this provides the total picture. Let me cite an example from my own and other chessplayers' practice: During tournament games, have you tried listing down the time after each move (not in time panic, of course)? Even Wesley So does this (I don't know if he already stopped the practice but I know for a fact that he used to note down the time after each move.).What's the purpose of this? Again, let me hazard a guess: Noting the time allows you to 'see' how you handle certain moves or positions. On a deeper level this practice allows you to analyze your own weaknesses or strengths and work on them accordingly. Now let's parse your opening statement above, with emphasis on the words I will try to argue against: "all blunders are blunders <regardless of the circumstance> that is how we get better trying to learn." I don't agree with <disregarding the circumstances>. How does one play in time trouble (yours or the opponent's), analyze particular types of position, and react against the opponent's movements and expressions also offer valuable insights for improving one's play. Therefore, I believe, knowing after a game that a certain move was a blunder isn't enough. You must try to figure out why you made it. This is what I was attempting for this game on the onset, and because I didn't watch the game live, you are probably correct in saying that <Georgiev started playing on his opponent's time, a bad mistake from a veteran player (you can see that because his time actually started to increase with the 30 second increments).> Still, however, it doesn't totally negate the fact that Georgiev reactions were based on factors related to the game (opponent's time trouble, better position), so, directly or indirectly, he was 'pressured' until he made the losing move. One also has to consider the fact that in a hard-fought chess game such as this, the pressure builds up from the beginning until it is terminated by the outcome of the game. It doesn't make sense to me that a veteran GM, with more time on his clock and a winning position, would lose through a single, seemingly obvious (in fact, it hardly requires deep calculation), error. As for the 'pleasure' part, I typed it with a grin. Anyway, thanks for sharing your thoughts. :) |
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Sep-11-12 | | Parbrahman: Take into considearation also the position when blunder happened: winning, losing or even positions. |
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Sep-11-12 | | Marmot PFL: 57 c5 should be a win, but rather slow, and white was looking for something more decisive. Why not 57 Qe7?, threatening the rook as well as mate? The tragedy of Qe7 is that it allows Rh1+!, and that is easily missed since white played f4 to prevent that move just 3 moves before. |
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Sep-17-12 | | rjsolcruz: The King is gone but is not forgotten.
Neil Young |
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Aug-05-13
 | | Phony Benoni: The energy of Black's KR over the first 50 moves is quite admirable: <h8-f8-d8-d7-d1-d2-h2-h6-c6-c8-b8-a8>! Maybe You Can't Go Home Again, but there are other attractive corners of the chessboard. After all that, it deserved the chance to deliver the final check without moving. |
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Aug-05-13 | | iking: IT SEEMS |
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