| Oct-16-22 | | jrredfield: I think this is about seeing where White eventually went astray because after 13 ... Rxc3, it's still quite even. One engine I tested with shows only an advantage for Black of about +0.26. So I'm not sure whether to think of this as a puzzle to solve this position or as more of a full game analysis. I was leaning toward 13 ... Rxc3 but not entirely sure what to follow up with. |
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| Oct-16-22 | | yrotcivca: Hmm white can come back strong with 16. fxg4 Nxe4 17. Qd3 Bxd4 18. Qxe4 Qxb2+ 19. Kd2 Qc3+ 20. Ke2 Qc4+ 21. Kf3 Qc3+ 22. Bd3 e5 23. Rhf1 Rf8 24. Kg3 Or 22. Bd3 f5 23. Qd5+ Kg7 24. gxf5 gxf5 25. Qxf5 Rf8 26. Rhg1+ Kh6 27. Qxf8+ Kh5 28. Rg5+ Kxh4 29. Qh6# |
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| Oct-16-22 | | mel gibson: The first move was obvious.
Stockfish 15 is calling it close to a draw:
13... Rxc3
(13. .. Rxc3 (♖c8xc3 ♕d2xc3 ♕a5xa2+ ♔b1-c1 ♗e6xg4 f3xg4 ♕a2-a1+ ♔c1-d2 ♘f6xe4+
♔d2-e1 ♘e4xc3 ♖d1xa1 ♗g7xd4 ♗f1-g2 ♘c3-b5 c2-c3 ♗d4-b6 ♗g2xb7 ♖a8-b8 ♗b7-c6
♘b5-c7 ♔e1-d2 ♘c7-e6 b2-b4 ♘e6-f4 b4-b5 ♖b8-c8 ♖a1-a4 e7-e5 ♖h1-f1 ♔g8-g7
♖f1xf4 e5xf4 ♖a4xf4 ♗b6-d8 ♖f4-a4 ♖c8-c7 ♖a4-d4 ♗d8xh4 ♖d4xd6 ♗h4-f2 c3-c4
♖c7-e7 ♗c6-f3 ♗f2-c5 ♖d6-d5 ♗c5-e3+ ♔d2-d3 ♗e3-f2 ♗f3-d1 ♖e7-c7 ♔d3-c3
♖c7-c5 ♖d5-d7 ♖c5-e5 ♗d1-f3 ♖e5-e3+ ♖d7-d3 ♖e3-e7 ♗f3-c6 h7-h5 g4xh5 g6xh5
♖d3-f3 ♗f2-b6 ♔c3-b4 ♖e7-e5 ♗c6-d5 f7-f5 ♖f3-d3 ♔g7-f6 c4-c5 ♗b6-c7 ♔b4-c4)
+0.30/57 766)
score for Black +0.30 depth 57. |
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| Oct-16-22 | | yrotcivca: Nevermind i see it now 16. fxg4 Nxe4 17. Qd3 Qa1# |
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Oct-16-22
 | | al wazir: I think 16. fxg4 Qa1+ (16...Nxe4 17. Qa3) 17. Kd2 Nxe4+ 18. Ke3 Qxd1 19. Kxe4 kills the attack. |
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| Oct-16-22 | | Brenin: It's easy see that Black can play 13 ... Rxc3 14 Qxc3 (14 Bxc3 or 14 bxc3 Qxa2+ with mate) Qxa2+ 15 Kc1 but what has he gained from this exchange sacrifice, other than a P and exposing White's K? Then 15 ... Bxg4 seems senseless, as White can safely accept the further sacrifice with 16 fxg4 Qa1+ 17 Kd2 Nxe4+ 18 Ke1 Nxc3 19 Rxa1 Bxd4 20 Bg2, with a fairly equal position. Instead, 16 Qe3 was a bad misjudgment. |
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| Oct-16-22 | | EasilyConfused: <brenin: Then 15 ... Bxg4 seems senseless, as White can safely accept the further sacrifice with 16 fxg4 Qa1+ 17 Kd2 Nxe4+ 18 Ke1 Nxc3 19 Rxa1 Bxd4 20 Bg2, with a fairly equal position. Instead, 16 Qe3 was a bad misjudgment.>
But in this line, after 18 Ke1, better for Black is 18..Qxd1+ 19 Kxd1 Nxc3+ 20 Bxc3. Black has 3 pawns for a bishop, with an interesting endgame ahead. So maybe Black’s sacrifice should be seen as giving some chances for a quick win if White makes an error in defence, but ending in a fairly equal position otherwise? |
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Oct-16-22
 | | An Englishman: Good Evening: Another "sacrifice and trust" continuation--don't think about it, just sacrifice and trust in your tactical ability. What does Stockfish think of the <yrotcivca> line 15...Bxg4; 16.fxg4,Nxe4? Guessing the silicon monster might play 17.Qa3 in reply. Maybe not the best Sunday puzzle, but claiming credit anyway for a 5/7 week (flubbed Friday and Saturday). |
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| Oct-16-22 | | Brenin: <EasilyCofused>: <Black has 3 pawns for a bishop, with an interesting endgame ahead.> After White's Bg2, Kd2, c4 and Ra1 or Rb1 those Q-side Ps are not going to survive long: their K is too remote to save them, so I think the endgame favours White. |
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Oct-16-22
 | | scormus: Well, I got the first two moves. Then what? I couldn't see any possibility of a forced win. Neither could SF nor <Brenin>, but they both agree with B, that 15 ... Bxg4 is the best try, with the continuation he already posted, and that 16 Qe3 loses. I wondered about 15 ... Qa1+ 16 Kd2 Qa4 and Rc8 to follow, trying to keep the forces on board, but according to SF it comes out dead level after some heavy wood chopping. Shouldn't be surprised there is no forced win from the puzzle position, if there was then I think it would have been known about. However, 13 g4 was a poor move. After the piece exchange on d4 and Kb1, W has lost too much time to force through the attack. 13 h5 would be worse, as it allows a later ... Bh6+ with W unable to block it with b5 |
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| Oct-16-22 | | agb2002: White threatens h5.
The first idea that comes is the typical exchange sacrifice 13... Rxc3 14.Qxc3 (14.B(b)xc3 Qxa2+ 15.Kc1 Qa1#) 14... Qxa2+ 15.Kc1 Qa1+ (to block the action of the rook on d4; 15... Rc8 16.Qa3 or 15... Qa4 16.b3 Qd7 and the attack is over) 16.Kd2 Qa4: A) 17.b3 Nxe4+ 18.fxe4 Qxd4+ 19.Qxd4 Bxd4 with two pawns for the exchange, unclear. B) 17.Ke3 Rc8 18.Qd3, unclear.
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Another option is 13... b5:
A) 14.Nxb5 Qxa2+ 15.Kc1 Qa1#.
B) 14.Bxb5 Rxc3 15.a4 (15.Qxc3 Qxb5) 15... Nxe4 16.fxe4 Bxd4 17.Qxd4 Rc7, unclear. C) 14.Nd5 Qxd2 15.Rxd2 (15.Nxe7+ Kf8 16.Nxg6+ fxg6 17.Rxd2 a6) 15... Nxd5 16.exd5 Bd7 doesn't look advantageous for Black. -----
I don't know. I'd probably give a try to the exchange sacrifice. |
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| Oct-16-22 | | goodevans: <scormus: [...] I couldn't see any possibility of a forced win. Neither could SF nor <Brenin>, but they both agree with B, that 15 ... Bxg4 is the best try...> Sorry, but neither seems to think 15...Bxg4 is best. SF prefers the line 15...Qa1+ Kd2 16.Qa4 upon which you pondered whilst <Brenin> said "15 ... Bxg4 seems senseless". I've found quite a few games with this 13...Rxc3 sac here and on other chess sites
(e.g. B Simonovic vs R Horvat, 1947) and in every single case Black has chosen 15...Bxg4 even though SF thinks 15...Qa1+ is better. Guess that makes it a very 'human' move. |
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Oct-16-22
 | | Dionysius1: Isn't the Nc3 a bit of a gift horse in these openings? It defends so many critical things (squares I suppose, even more than pieces) - it's got to be worth a Rook.
Anyway, I didn't look it in the mouth, and got the solution as far as 15...Bxg4, but I assumed White would take the Bishop I suppose like anybody the further I try to calculate in my head, the fewer variations per move I'm able to envisage. So I didn't think about 16.Qe3. Not though because there were too many branches by then, I was only thinking of this one. The further away in connected distance or time the more the picture just fades. It'd be good if it didn't. |
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Oct-16-22
| | scormus: <goodevans> Sorry <Brenin> I misquoted. The line you gave was the one SF gave, but I should have said it was only SF that judged 15 ... Bxg4 as B's best try. I looked further with SF (v14.1). It gave a modest, 0.2 to 0.3, edge to B after 15 ... Bxg4. Perhaps a draw more likely than win. It's attempt to eval ... Qa1+ was rather problematic. The edge to B fluctuated between 0.5 to 1.0 at plies less than 20, but seeming as if going to stabilise. Then at d=20 it dropped and stabilised at 0.0 at anything deeper. However, 14.1 is not the latest version, and the reliability of my analysis might be hardware limited on my machine. I'm not really satisfied with this outcome. |
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Oct-16-22
 | | chrisowen: I jogger it's wobble quaint Rxc3 abattoir au la axiom jah it's a flight plunge baddy x off Rxc3 ditch; |
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Oct-16-22
 | | perfidious: With several kibitzers listing a small edge for Black in the evals--though insufficient to claim a serious advantage--I find his position easier to play, and it is his opponent who must exercise great care. |
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| Oct-16-22 | | Dream Warrior: 11.h4? is a mistake.
Right way is 11.Kb1! Black cannot play 11...Qa5? because of 12.Nd5. So, Black has to play Qc7, Rfc8 and only after that Qa5. For example: 11.Kb1! Qc7 12.h4 Rfc8 13.h5 Qa5 - White has an extra move comparing the game |
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Oct-16-22
 | | Yuridmi: 13. a3 in the game line would have saved White from unnecessary pain |
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| Oct-16-22 | | Tiggler: My try after the first two obvious moves was 15.. Rc8. The W Q has to go to b4 or e1 and black still has an attack that looks better than the game line. |
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Oct-16-22
 | | PawnSac: < mel gibson: The fiirst move was obvious. > You mean ..Rxc3? As soon as i saw it was a Sicilian i thought.. "is it time yet? It must be! Black wins." lol If you want to frustrate a lower rated Sicilian player, deny him this capture and he has no game. < BG > |
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Kibitzing
sac: 13...Rxc3