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Apr-05-04 | | maoam: <Yes, Einstein is overrated, end of of story> No. He won the Nobel prize for a paper on the photoelectric effect. It was one of three brilliant papers he published in 1905, the other two introduced special relativity and predicted Brownian motion. <Give us 200 more years and I'm sure Einstein's theories will begin to fall apart one by one> General relativity is just a model. It just says that spacetime is a 4-dimensional manifold, and that gravity is a manifestation of the choice of metric. Perhaps in 200 years some kind of quantum gravity theory will be standard. Newton's theories lasted 300 years is because it took that long to develop the right tools, like tensor calculus. |
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Apr-05-04 | | markt: <clendenon> please, what is the answer to the second paradox? |
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Apr-05-04 | | maoam: <markt> Take a look at the Usenet Physics FAQ: http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/physi.... |
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Apr-05-04 | | clendenon: Einstein also has a patent for a refrigerator. |
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Apr-05-04
 | | Sneaky: <For me, this personality, notwithstanding his fundamentally optimistic attitude, had a tragic note. The enormous mental resilience, without which no chess player can exist, was so much taken up by chess that he could never free his mind of this game, even when he was occupied by philosophical and humanitarian questions.> Albert Einstein, in his foreword to Hannak's biography of Emmanuel Lasker |
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Apr-05-04 | | clendenon: <maoam> I don't think it will take 200 years for a quatum gravity theory to become standard. Loop quantum gravity is pretty interesting and advances are coming fast. |
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Apr-05-04 | | maoam: <clendenon>
Sure, I don't know what the current developements are. I was just trying to point out that Einstein's ideas aren't going to <fall apart>, we'll just develop better models. |
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Apr-05-04 | | Reisswolf: <PinkPanther wrote:
Yes, Einstein is overrated, end of of story. But concerning the comments you made about some of Newtons theories being false and not holding up under certain circumstances, I have but one thing to say about that. Did you ever stop to think that some of Newton's theories have gone up against over 300 years or scrutiny, whereas Einstein's ideas were only hatched in the last century? Give us 200 more years and I'm sure Einstein's theories will begin to fall apart one by one.> You are wrong. And, frankly, if this were not the chessgames.com site, where I must maintain decorum, I would have said quite plainly that you are...um...not very smart. Anyway, I don't want to spend my time discussing a topic about which my interlocutor knows NOTHING. *****
A few people asked about the Twins Paradox.
The answer is that Grounder, who remained on the earth, is indeed older than Spacely, who has been travelling at great speeds. The "paradox"--or what is seemingly paradoxical--is that from the point of view of Spacely, it is Grounder who has been travelling very fast. However, the situation here is not perfectly symmetrical, because only one of the frames of reference--Grounder's frame--is what is called an "inertial frame." Spacely's frame of reference is a non-inertial frame. Only Spacely experiences an acceleration; Grounder does not. (This can easily be measured by experiments involving spectral shifts, even simpler ones are possible.) As a result, the physics that Spacely observes cannot be measured by our inertial laws and theories. (Einstein's general theory of relativity deals with physics in non-inertial frames. But it is almost impossible to give a good account of it without involving a field of mathematics called differential geometry.) |
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Apr-05-04 | | JustAFish: The problem with Relativity is not that it fails in some respect, it's just not all-encompassing. However, as long as we're talking about the macroscopic, non-quantum, universe, relativity is just about the most well established theory going. It has passed ALL experiemental tests given of it. The "Answer" to the Twins Paradox, is that the "travelling" twin actually changes his inertial reference frame by going in both directions. General relativity's most fundamental idea is that there is an equivalence between an acceleration and a gravitational field. In other words, if you're in an accelerating spaceship (without any extermal reference cues) you have no way to distinguish the "weight" you feel from the accelleration of the ship from a gravitation field from, say, a planet. (n.b. This only applies to a given point. Take two measurements, one "above" the other, and the gravity field will show a slight difference- a "tide"- whereas the accelerating intertial reference frame will not.) The travelling twin must, in order to get back to his starting point, go through a large change in acceleration. Because of the equivilance between gravity and accelerating, this changes the rate at which clocks in the rest of the universe appear to tick. (Gravity changes the speed at which clocks tick.) The stay-at-home twin, during the change in direction of the travelling twin, will appear to be at the top of a very deep gravitational potential, and thus the stay-at-home twin's clocks will appear to run faster during the change in direction. This contributes to the Twin "paradox." All this has been tested with atomic clocks and airplanes and has been demonstrated to happen exactly as Einstein predicted. These things are only a "paradox" because they are counter-intuitive. Our real world experience doesn't prepare us for the strange ways that the universe works at the extremes of speed, mass and acceleration. |
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Apr-05-04 | | JustAFish: I guess reisswolf was busy typing away at the same time I was... |
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Apr-05-04 | | zsystriker: <JustAFish> Good GOD! For a "fish" you know your physics! Could you also enlighten me about this String Theory? This topic has to rank up there with feminine psychology as the most baffling. |
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Apr-05-04 | | clendenon: Between Reisswolf and JustAFish, I think you have all the science you need, so I'll pack my PhD in physics (USND 1977) and move on.."On the road again, just can't wait to get on the road again..." |
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Apr-05-04 | | unsound: Welcome back, <clendenon>. It may amuse you to know I just wasted my time even more than usual by trying to find the USND website. We graduates of the U of Northern South Dakota (Go Ring-necked Pheasants!) take things very literally. |
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Apr-05-04 | | karnak64: Hey! Is this chess or rocket science? |
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Apr-05-04 | | MoonlitKnight: I'll be more impressed if someone shows up here without having studied the theory of relativity. |
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Apr-05-04 | | PinkPanther: <To the poser with the German name>
How can you prove that I am wrong? In fact, you can't. Also, stop trying to use large words thinking it will make you sound smart and convince people that your side of the argument is the right one. |
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Apr-05-04 | | jesterco12: PinkPanther, relativity, both special and general, has been proven to an incredible degree. The reason Newton's theories held for so long was because his theories are correct until you come to speeds approaching the speed of light, which is about 670 million miles per hour. Until you get even close to that speed, almost none of the implications of relativity become apparent, so it is easy to dismiss it. But when you take into account extreme circumstances that we don't usually come into contact with on a daily basis, such as ridiculously high speeds and extremely large masses like planets, relativity begins to become very obvious. So it's easy to not fully trust in relativity since it cannot easily be demonstrated to the lay person, but you have to trust that thousands upon thousands of tests by physicists and mathematicians have proven it to be correct. |
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Apr-05-04 | | InspiredByMorphy: Was somebody arguing PinkPanther? I thought this was a debate. |
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Apr-06-04 | | francescog: I don't think that Einstein is overrated. I find general relativity amazing and elegant and (what it is more important) experiments have tested some of its predictions and found GR was more accurate than its competitors (not that we have many different theories of gravitation, but in fact it was at least checked that Newton's model was not in perfect agreement with data). To ask who is better between Newton or Einstein seems more a joke than a scientific question to me. What I don't understand is (once you have accepted to play this joke) saying that Von Braun was "better" (!?!?!). As other have told GR is not the last word (the last word in physics doesn't exist, as in every other field). Surely there will be (or there should be) many changes in our interpretation and understanding of the world (and in particular, as someone already told, we could find that superstrings, or loop quantum gravity have already found a "more precise" answer to the particular problem of understanding gravitation). This will not, in my opinion, give less importance to the work done by Albert Einstein (and by Newton and by Galileo Galilei). I think that their works are truly masterpieces even in a broader sense outside physics.
ps: as it is obvious, I'm a physicist (or would like to be, I'm writing my thesis right now...) |
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Apr-06-04 | | Lawrence: Those of us who read maoam's link yesterday (the 7 sections that deal with "The Twin Paradox") will be able to evaluate Sneaky's comment on Mar. 31, <"The Special Theory of Relativity (time dilation, e=mc^2, etc.) is not terribly complex to derive. All you need is a mastery of the Pythagorean theorem, simple geometry skills, and a conviction that Newton's idea was 100% correct."> Well, OK pal, if you say so. :-) |
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Apr-06-04 | | markt: OK. I see. It is acceleration (or gravity) that makes the difference. |
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Apr-06-04 | | ajit: <markt> simple...isn't it ?!:-) |
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Apr-06-04 | | JustAFish: <t: OK. I see. It is acceleration (or gravity) that makes the difference.> In one way of looking at it, yes. However, my explanation was a bit lazy- the general relativistic way of looking at the Twin Pardox is by far the easiest to get the brain around. The explanation incorporating only special relativity requires pictures to visualize adequately, and is much harder. That one can have multiple correct explanations for the Twin Paradox, is kind of like saying that there are multipule good reasons for a given move in chess. One can view move "x" while wearing tactical glasses, or positional ones. At the deepest level, both sets of glasses come up with the same answer. |
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Apr-06-04 | | JustAFish: <String theory>
Okay, you asked for it... :-)
String theory is a yet another method of attempting to combine the the theory of Relativity with the various models of quantum behavior. It is more properly thought of as part of a much larger complex of 5 different models of looking at the universe called "M-Brane" theory or, simply "M" theory. The theory (or more properly "theories") is far too complicated to explain in a single post. (I've been struggling for years to understand it.) However, part of it can be summarized quite easily. If one models the behavior of the various particles in the universe as tiny, one dimensional "strings", that vibrate according to some fairly simple formulae, one can build up a model of the universe based on these vibrations that matches the behavior of particles that we see in the world. M-Brane theory also applies a number of "rules" to these particles that govern how they behave with each other and with other, larger, two-or-more dimensional structures called "branes". For instance, in one conception of M theory, looped strings float freely between branes, but non-looped strings attach themselves to branes. So, a non-looped string is confined to the "surface" of a brane, whereas the looped string could travel between them. So, for instance, if we imagine the three familliar dimensions of our universe to be a "brane" and we imagine that, for instance, a photon (light particle) is a non-loop and a graviton (hypothetical gravity particle) is a loop, then we would imagine that gravitons and photons would behave differently. A photon, emitted on our 3-dimensional brane, would forever be trapped in that brane. In other words, a photon would never "go missing". However, in this model, a graviton, which can float freely between branes, might tend to wander off of our brane and have an influence in other, paralell branes (that is, other parallel universes.) In this conception, it is possible to imagine that there might be "missing" gravity or, if there are many other branes out there parallel to ours, additional gravity seeping in from these other universes that we cannot see with photons. This particular model offers up a nice explanation for the unsolved problem in cosmology of "dark matter"- the problem by which the masses of galaxy clusters and other large structures in the universe, seem to have much more gravity than the matter in them (matter that we can see by looking at the various forms of electromagnetic radiation that they emit) would suggest. But this is just a tiny part of "M" theory.
"M Theory" is a work in progress. That is, there are various competing flavors of it out there being discussed and debated. Several of the competing variants -- different variants are usually distinguished by the number of dimensions they suggest -- make predictions that can, in principle, be tested. It will probably fall to the results of a set of experiments to decide which, if any, "M Theory" is correct. This synopsis is pretty good:
http://physics.about.com/cs/stringt... |
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Apr-06-04 | | zsystriker: Thanks <Fish>. Your link was very helpful, too. Now explain feminine psychology!!! -- okay, okay, just joking. It's heartening to see that some of us chess players aren't so one dimensional typified by Fischer. |
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