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Feb-09-05 | | beenthere240: My chronological age is 60 and my mental age is equivalent to the average 120 year old, giving me an IQ of 200. Excuse me while I try to remember why I am posting this message. |
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Feb-09-05 | | MUG: If my IQ is anything like my ELO then I'm in serious trouble!!! |
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Feb-10-05 | | poktirity: <admiralnemo> That is how it works up to you are 15 years old. |
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Feb-10-05 | | JustAFish: < If you practice frequently IQ tests, you will not be "prepared" for them, but your IQ will increase. Some people say the highest possible increase of the IQ is 10 - 20 points. > Doesn't it seem more plausible that it is your IQ _score_ that is increasing by 10 to 20 pointes and not your "general intelligence" (assuming that there is such a thing.) If it were the case that overall intelligence could be increased so much by practicing the specific types of problems common to IQ tests, getting smarter would be a simple matter of studying I.Q. tests and doing so would be part of all school curricula. This seems a bit far fetched to me. It seems more likely that studying I.Q. tests would add slightly to the myriad experiences that a given person has throughout their lives (in addition to any genetic predisposition they might have) and, simply, broaden their world a bit. The increase, in score, would be dispropotionate to actual increase in "general intelligence" (assuming that exists) because of one's familliatity with the types of problems on such tests. Someone actively taking up chess, or painting, or advanced knitting, or crossword puzzles, would have a similar "broadening" of expereince, but would not, I think, show a similar increase in I.Q. _score_ to the person who devoted themselves to studying I.Q. test puzzles. So, the I.Q. test fails. I think what advocates of I.Q. tests are trying to do is take the very messy realm of human intelligence(s), memory, achievement and success and shoehorn it into a tiny managable box. This might make categorizing people easier, but it strikes me as precisely the opposite of the "intelligent" thing to do- that is, it "dumbs down" the study of the complex human mind, reducing it all to a single number. I'm not denying that some people are generally smarter, more quick witted, quicker learners, or have better memories than others, just that an I.Q. test is a very limited- and potentially skewed- means by which to assess these qualities. It's far better to use another, more flexible, tool, the human mind- with it's judgement and ability to synthesize reams of disparate data- to judge the worth and intelligence of other humans. |
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Feb-10-05 | | admiralnemo: <beenthere240> LOL :) |
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Feb-10-05 | | admiralnemo: <justafish> well said. |
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Feb-10-05 | | Saruman: Might I add; the tests he took were in english-not in his native language. |
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Feb-10-05 | | fgh: <JustAFish>: I don't know what kind of IQ tests you have seen, but I remeber once they gave me an IQ test, which included this kind of exercises: They told me the numbers 78154388227915. First, I had to repeat those numbers, and then I had to say them in reversed order. Or, they told me a random serie of letters, and I had to repeat them in the reversed order. There where also spatial reasoning exercises, "What is the next picture" etc. |
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Feb-10-05 | | PinkPanther: <beenthere24>
It doesn't work like that once you get to that age. |
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Feb-11-05 | | JustAFish: <fgh>
Those are just the sort of things I've seen in IQ tests. Other things I've seen included myraid forms of analogies (verbal and visual), number sequences (very popular), spatial reasoning tests (figure rotation), complete the visual series puzzles (three or four pictures, figure the pattern and complete it) and various forms of riddles. In each of these types, there are only so many ways people have come up with to form a interesting pattern for the prospective I.Q. Test taker to puzzle out. Just as most tactics in chess can be broken down into the fork, double attack, skewer, back rank threat, x-ray attack, clearance, diversion etc,. types, in my experience, I.Q. test puzzles can too. When faced with a number sequence puzzle, for instance, I instantly run through the gamut of possibilities that I have encountered in the past (fibonacci sequences, squares, alphabetical sequence, etc,.) and usually hit upon the right one pretty quickly because there are only so many types. Note that my speed, and therefore my I.Q. score, is not due to any great insight on my part, but due to the fact that I've seen these sorts of things a dozen times before and am familliar with the cute tricks the puzzle makers try to play on us. Someone new to these puzzles would not be so trained and would invariably perform more slowly than I, even if that person were particuarly sharp. This familiarity speeds up my quest even when the "trick" is new to me because it allows me to quickly dismiss other, more shopworn, possibilities and get on to more creative thinking. Someone might retort "but your training in I.Q. tests is making you more intelligent." To this, I ask, if they think training in I.Q. tests would improve your chess ability (as clearly, more intelligent people tend to be better at chess) by a comparable amount. Perhaps a miniscule amount. Would the converse be true? Perhaps, again, only a miniscle amount. In other words, does the rising tide of improved skill in one area, necessarily mean a proportionate amount of improved skill in all areas? I doubt it. |
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Feb-11-05 | | JustAFish: (cont'd) One of my best friends is a "stereotypical" scientist. He has exceptional mathematical and spatial ability, a superb ELO rating in chess, is quick to understand scientific within the "hard" sciences (physics, chemisty, mathematics). According to Mensa, he has a "genius" level I.Q. score of 152. Alas, he is positively hopeless when it comes to a whole suite of other realms. I've been to many movies with him and, emerging into the light after the film, was puzzled to learn the film- oftentimes one that is highly regarded by reputable critics- which had just wowed me left him bored or uncomprehending. On further investigation, it has become clear that simple understanding of character motivation, or plot, or the basic narrative structures that filmmakers choose to tell stories or create atmosphere go right over his head. (The unconventionally structured "Memento", for instance, was completely befuddling. The many themes of documentary "The Thin Blue Line" passed him by. ) After an explanation by me, he has the ability to comprehend just what it is that he missed- but has yet to master the ability absorb a film's methods "on the fly"- that is, on his own during the movie. He has a similar blindness to music of all types ("classical," he knows, is supposed to be good, so he plays that), most kinds of contemporary art, and even some of the "soft sciences". So, his "broad intelligence" and mental flexibility, as proven by his I.Q. score, doesn't translate. I suspect that we're all, to a certain extent, like this. Those with high I.Q. scores are simply people with exceptional ability in the well codified areas germane to I.Q. tests. This sort of ability does not necessarily make one good at everything else. Social situations, artistic judgement, teaching ability, empathy, negotiation, sense of humor, acting talent, chess, self awareness, writing ability, speaking ability, musical talent, gastronomic judgement, and linguistic ability etc,. for the most part, are not covered (and, in a sense, cannot be adequately covered) in a written, scored, test. |
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Feb-16-05 | | OneBadDog: Who has the higher IQ, Reed Richards or Victor Von Doom? |
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Feb-19-05
 | | Gypsy: <JustAFish> The point you are making is also reasonably well made in R. Kiyosaki's pop-finance books, in particular in "Rich Kid Smart Kid". In addition to this point, Kiyosaki actually makes a suggestion on how to increase one's IQ in any particular area -- that is why I am bringing it up: First of all, Kiyosaki claims that high IQ is, from a very large part, the ability to make fine distinctions about the subjects. The high ability to classify things as being "same" or "distinct" (and why, I guess) -- 'A' is like 'B' but unlike 'C' -- is to him the sign of an high IQ in a particular area. Of course, from this, it is just an obvious corollary to conscientiously develop home-brewed classification schemes for each area where one wants to increase own intellectual performance. It is an imperfect suggestion, I am sure, kind of like <improve the position of your worst positioned piece>, but it seems equally good in practice. |
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Mar-08-05
 | | BishopBerkeley: From Six Easy Pieces: “Basic Physics” by Richard Feynman: What do we mean by “understanding” something? We can imagine this complicated array of moving things which constitutes “the world” is something like a great chess game being played by the gods, and we are observers of the game. We do not know what the rules of the game are; all we are allowed to do is watch the playing. Of course, if we watch long enough, we may eventually catch on to some of the rules. The rules of the game are what we mean by fundamental physics. Even if we knew every rule, however, we might not be able to understand why a particular move is made in the game, merely because it is too complicated and our minds are limited. If you play chess you must know that it is easy to learn all the rules, and yet it is often very hard to select the best move or to understand why a player moves as he does. So it is in nature, only much more so; but we may be able to at least find all the rules. Actually, we do not have all the rules now. (Every once in a while something like castling is going on that we still do not understand.) Aside from not knowing all the rules, what we really can explain in terms of those rules is very limited, because almost all situations are so enormously complicated that we cannot follow the plays of the game using the rules, much less tell what is going to happen next. We must, therefore, limit ourselves to the more basic questions of the rules of the game. If we know the rules, we consider that we “understand” the world.... http://shiny.scrump.net/index.php?p...
"Six Easy Pieces" at Amazon.com:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/A... "Six Not-So-Easy Pieces: Einstein's Relativity, Symmetry, and Space-Time" by Richard Feynman at Amazon.com: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/t... More on Richard Feynman:
http://nobelprize.org/physics/laure... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richar...
http://www.feynman.com/
(: ♗ Bishop Berkeley ♗ :)
P.S. On the [rare] occasions when I feel concern that something I'm doing might not meet with social approval, I find that that famous sentence of Richard Feynman often leaps to mind, "What do you care what other people think?!" Of course, to some degree I do care - but I try to be very careful just whose opinions I allow to matter to me. |
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Mar-08-05 | | OJC: If I recall correctly < Bishop >, the "What do you care what other people think ?!" advice was actually given to Feynman by his wife when Feynman had to make a life decision of some sort. He named one of his books this as a tribute to the story (which is in the book along with an in depth analysis of the Challenger disaster). It goes to show that even geniuses often benefit from the common sense advice of their spouses. Tal's wife, for example, claims to have played an essential "common sense" role in his day to day living. |
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Mar-08-05 | | OJC: < He named one of his books this as a tribute to the story. > Come to think of it, someone might have named the book this for him as Feynman died in 1988 and the book might have been published posthumously. |
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Mar-08-05 | | sharpnova: <justafish> i imagine your friend's understanding of such movies is probably greater than yours.. it's the subtle inconsistencies that baffle him. inconsistencies you probably aren't bright enough to see. if he has an abstract mind like you said he did, memento would be candy for him. it wouldn't be befuddling in the least. i really get sick of how people try to make themselves feel better by belittling geniuses. i love the old "einstein flunked all his classes and couldn't tie his shoes and was generally bad at math" i really love it. it just shows the insecurity that people have when standing in the shadow of a genius. in general, geniuses are brighter and better at most everything than the common person. they just see how trivial and stupid a lot of it is and don't bother with it. i learned in elementary school to classify the people who called themselves "bad in math and science but good in art and english" as STUPID. because that's what they were. |
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Mar-08-05
 | | BishopBerkeley: <OJC> I had heard, just anecdotally, that Feynman's famous book title and "slogan" did originate with his wife (or was she his fiancee who never quite became his wife - since as I recall, she passed away at a young age?), though I've never found a reliable source for this story. I had also heard that Feynman was absolutely devastated when she did pass away. Though again, I don't know quite enough about him biographically. I do think that loving and supportive spouses are often among the unsung heroes and heroines of the human race! (: ♗B :) |
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Mar-08-05 | | Granite: Firstly to adress this statement...
<Saruman: My brother for instance took some IQ-tests, probably 3 or 4 and got an average of IQ 135, on online tests. But he is only 15 years old; most likely he would raise that IQ before he is grown up.>Two important problems here the main one being that online tests are complete garbage. I've taken online IQ tests intentionally getting all the questions wrong only to have them give me an IQ of 135. The reason for this is that 135 is the standard 'genius' level and they're normally selling personality tests and using their 'IQ' test as a marketing tool to make people feel smart so they buy their products. The only accurate and serious IQ test are administered by professionals and you'll generally have to pay several hundred dollars to take one. If you'd like to take a serious IQ test I'd recommend contacting Mensa and seeing when they can come to your area for testing. The second myth is that IQ changes over time. The truth is that IQs are remarkably consistent throughout life and it's very unlikely your brothers IQ will change at all. The reason IQ tests take age into account is exactly for this purpose - to make the results applicable long term. IQ tests are *not* a measure of intelligent. They're simply a measure of certain kinds of skills and abilities that make certain types of learning easier. They are designed with the idea that these skills are easily testable and universal regardless of culture and language issues - although those factors have to be accounted for when testing individuals. On another note claiming Einstein was bad at math is absolutely ridiculous. He has a very deep and sound understanding of many higher level math concepts long before the rest of the physics community caught up. It's very possible that he did poorly with arithmetic and other simply manipulations but he had a very high level understanding into the nature of high level algebraic systems axiomatic structures and the true power of abstraction. Personally I struggled in math class for many years and to this day still need a calculator for elementary multiplcations (8X7 alway gets me). That being said - I have a masters degree in Math because indeed math doesn't have anything to do with manipulating numbers or equations beyond a trivial level but relies more on an understanding of how to distill basic principles to model a paticular situation and derive conclusive rational results based on those ideas. The common recounting of Einstein's epiphany while riding the bus and thinking about what it would be like to ride on a beam of light is a perfect example of high level mathematical thinking. He found a simple fact from physics and treated it as an axiom for building his model of the universe and then investigated the mathematical tools available to him to flesh that theory out. Essentially everything he discovered came from this simple fact and then applying old results mathamaticians had discovered hundreds of years before him to his new model of the universe. Naturally he also did the work to back up his claims which involved a lot of math and manipulation, but at the same time once you have the essential idea this basically boils down to looking things up and copying them out of older books. The real meat of his discovery comes from his understanding of how to take a fundemental idea and extract the rest of the results from it - and that axiomatic method is the true heart of math. |
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Mar-08-05 | | OJC: < Bishop > Feynman was indeed quite devastated, partly because he had suspected a misdiagnosis early on in her illness and it turned out that he was right. He had decided to trust the doctors to "do their thing" against his better judgement and he goes on in some detail in WDYCWOPT how he learned an important lesson from the experience: do not disregard gut feelings especially in important matters. I am pretty sure he had decided to marry her shortly before she died (against his family's wishes too I think) even though (or probably because) her condition was by that time terminal. All this info is in "What do you care what other people think?!". I really recommend reading "What do you care what other people think?!" to anyone interested in Feynman; it gives a much more "serious" picture of Feynman than "Surely You're Joking Mr. Feynman." |
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Mar-08-05 | | Dick Brain: Anybody know what the deal is with Einstein's hair? |
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Mar-08-05
 | | BishopBerkeley: <OJC> Thank you for this information! This matches what I had heard from an acquaintance of mine who is fond of Dr. Feynman. (This acquaintance had studied physics as a young woman with Edward Teller at UC-Berkeley.) <Richard Brain: Anybody know what the deal is with Einstein's hair?> I think he had the same hair stylist as John Belushi. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_B... But in this post-SuperCuts phase of human history, there's just no excuse for this kind of thing. http://www.supercuts.com/ (: ♗B :)
P.S. (I should talk! Tiny black-and-white c. 1989 picture of Bishop Berkeley showing the same "hair style" (if it may be called that) that he has today: http://www.100bestwebsites.org/alt/... ) |
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Mar-12-05 | | Dick Brain: <BishopBerkeley> Oh I was hoping most people would think this was an pic of Svidler not Belushi ;) Your thick 1989 hair is appropriate for a young man, but you have to get rid of that look before you reach 50 or so or else you might get this effect: http://www.thesmokinggun.com/mugsho... Now that's just wrong. |
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Mar-12-05 | | kakt: If Einstein is such a genius, why would he help invent the atom bomb or hydrogen bomb or whatever it is. I think by telling Lasker not to waste his time on chess, he proved that he doesn't think ahead. As a result, he helped invent this terrible bomb that killed thousands upon thousands! Poor Einstein, maybe his teacher was right when he said Einstein is a slow boy. |
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Mar-12-05 | | Knezh: Sharpnova, while the point you make about belittling geniuses is a valid one, your calling people who excel in humanitarian areas stupid shows your faulty judgment. Why are they stupid? Are they really? All of them? Consider Sigmund Freud - one of the greatest geniuses whose name is equally as famous as EIntein's. He was a humanitarian. Also, how about Michelangello? Arts require the different type of brain that sciences do, and stereotyping all the humanitarians in this manner is silly at least. That said, i am not an arts person, in fact, i am working towards my sophomore year in physics. |
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