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Big Pawn
Member since Dec-10-05
Philosophical thought of the week:

A man has a barn. Every now and then, he has to repair the barn by taking down some old planks of wood and replacing them with new pieces. He discards the old pieces in a pile on the other side of his yard. Gradually, over the years, he ends up replacing each and every piece of wood, one at a time and each time he replaced some wood, he took the old wood and threw it in the pile.

Now he went and took the original wood in the pile and built a barn with it. Which barn is the original barn, the one constructed where the original barn stood, or the one made out of the pile?

The three pillars of liberalism:

Sodomy
Abortion
Divorce

Graham's Hierarchy of Disagreement

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipe...

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   Big Pawn has kibitzed 23661 times to chessgames   [more...]
   Mar-30-20 Kenneth S Rogoff (replies)
 
Big Pawn: <Colonel Mortimer: <Bobsterman3000: <saffuna: <astrobob> Trump is doing all tbe things I named, now. Isn't he?> No, <America> is doing those things as the disease progressed and public opinion understood more and more information on the disease as it evolved
 
   Mar-30-20 Big Pawn chessforum (replies)
 
Big Pawn: <Many people accept there's a God but think he's so far away as to be irrelevant to their lives.> Yes, you said this the first time and I still think that not *many* people think like this. Deism isn't a fringe view. <Jesus' words apply to all. Paul was writing ...
 
   Mar-30-20 World Championship Candidates (2020) (replies)
 
Big Pawn: Why would anyone want to void the tournament? Just pick it back up when the plague passes.
 
   Mar-29-20 E Nikolic vs Fischer, 1968
 
Big Pawn: < diceman: <perfidious: Wot, can't think for yourself despite being superior to mere mortals, as you rush to lord over everyone?> Wow, bitter and doesn't understand the question. It's a perf two for!> Yep, <perfidious> is the site alcoholic. Old news. He goes ...
 
(replies) indicates a reply to the comment.

The Pawn Compound

Kibitzer's Corner
< Earlier Kibitzing  · PAGE 134 OF 134 ·  Later Kibitzing>
Mar-27-20
Premium Chessgames Member
  Big Pawn: <Troller: <Philosophical thought of the week>

I happen to be married to a curator at a museum and your thought is in fact a very concrete dilemma in some situations. This museum has an old windmill which has been renovated repeatedly over the years. Now they still have one(!) piece of wood from the original mill but the rest is replaced. The museum still says the mill is from 1700-whatever, but is it really?>

Excellent example! Yes, this is a fun, old philosophical question that explores the nature of essences. It's not at all easy to come to a decision one way or the other.

<<Bergson> is interesting for his theory on "la durée", that is reality can be described as a "flow of consciousness" where Time is not a definite measure. Not surprisingly, his thoughts coincided with the Theory of Relativity, and I believe in the end Bergson gave up on a scientific explanation on the concept of time and left it to the physicists.>

I believe in the A-theory of time, tensed time, which Einstein presupposes in his special theory of relativity, even though he is basically arguing that time is relative. I will have to check out some of Bergson's writings.

Do you have anything specific in mind where I should start?

Mar-27-20
Premium Chessgames Member
  thegoodanarchist: <Now he went and took the original wood in the pile and built a barn with it. Which barn is the original barn, the one constructed where the original barn stood, or the one made out of the pile?>

There is no barn:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XO0...

Mar-28-20  optimal play: After the very first repair to the original barn, when the first plank of wood is removed and replaced with a new piece of wood, and the old piece of wood is placed on the other side of his yard, is it still the original barn?
Mar-28-20  SugarDom: Big Pawn, if God exists why isn't managing the planet? We don't even hear from him anymore. Where is his prophet?
Mar-28-20
Premium Chessgames Member
  Big Pawn: <SugarDom: Big Pawn, if God exists why isn't managing the planet? We don't even hear from him anymore. Where is his prophet?>

The era of the prophets is over. We have His word in complete form now. That is enough.

What does it mean to manage the planet? God has given us a means to eternal salvation. Isn't that enough?

Your question is really another way of asking about the Problem of Evil. If God exists then why is their evil in the world, and evil can mean suffering too.

The short answer is the the existence of evil is evidence that God exists.

In terms of the worth of suffering, suffering often leads people to God. It's the absence of suffering that leads people astray, which is why we should thank God even for our troubles.

Mar-28-20  optimal play: <SugarDom: Big Pawn, if God exists why isn't managing the planet? We don't even hear from him anymore. Where is his prophet?>

That's a good question!

Perhaps in conjunction with BP's Philosophical thought of the week, someone could run a Theological thought of the week?

If I decide to re-up I might consider doing something like that on my forum.

Anyway, I don't agree with BP. We still have prophets and they are still rejected today as they were in biblical times.

In terms of managing the planet, that's up to us. We're not robots. We can choose between good and evil.

Although as I mentioned on <playground player>'s forum, perhaps God is allowing Satan some free reign with this pandemic?

Mar-28-20
Premium Chessgames Member
  Big Pawn: <optimal play: If I decide to re-up I might consider doing something like that on my forum.>

It would fun if you had the Theological Thought of the Week on your forum.

Mar-29-20  SugarDom: But where is your evidence that God exist?
Mar-29-20
Premium Chessgames Member
  Big Pawn: < SugarDom: But where is your evidence that God exist?>

The evidence is found in the weight of logic and reason.

It starts with this basic contention:

There is good evidence that theism is true, but there is not comparable evidence that atheism is true. One could say that there are no good reasons to think that atheism is true. That doesn't mean that theism is true, but both sides need arguments, evidence and reasons to justify their positive claims. There are, after all, two competing positive claims to knowledge in this debate:

1. Theism is true
2. Atheism is true

Since there are zero reasons to think that atheism is true, zero arguments that atheism is true and zero evidence that atheism is true, all we have to do is give good, logical, reasoned arguments that theism is true. Then, with all the weight on one side of the scale, a rational person is justified in thinking that theism is the more plausible worldview.

Arguments for theism:

1. The Kalam Cosmological argument
2. The Moral Argument
3. The Fine-Tuning Argument
4. The Argument from Contingency
5. The Ontological Argument
6. The Argument from the Historical facts surrounding the life, crucifixion, buried, death and post mortem appearances of the risen Christ. 7. The Applicability of Mathematics to Nature
8. The Argument from Intentionality of Conscious States 9. The Argument from Religious Experience

Each of these arguments have premises that are more plausibly true than their negations. Therefore, it is rational to accept the conclusions of these arguments and irrational to deny them.

Therefore, because all of the evidence is on one side (theism), it's rational to think that God exists and irrational to deny it.

Put simply: there are reasons to think theism is true but there are no reasons to think atheism is true.

Note: even if one refutes all of these arguments for theism, that still isn't an argument for the truth of atheism. Atheism still needs arguments and evidence. If the atheist doesn't provide such arguments but successfully refutes all of these theistic arguments, he must accept being plucked from his atheist position and resettled in the middle in his new agnostic position. A huge move toward theism!

Please note: Once the atheist has been moved to agnosticism, he must accept this premise: "It is possible that God exists"

Once he accepts that premise, he is vulnerable to the Ontological Argument.

It's almost impossible to be an atheist these days. Theistic philosophy has made huge strides in the last few decades and atheists find themselves with almost no place to even stand anymore.

Mar-29-20  SugarDom: Ok, but there seems to be lack of evidence of God. For example, evil, suffering and injustice exist.

Nobody has taken a picture or heard from God or even from the supernatural.

God has not talked to me.
God has not addressed the world.
I don't see or hear him.
Why should I believe in him.

Mar-29-20
Premium Chessgames Member
  Big Pawn: <sugardom>, when it comes to debating atheists, I think it’s of the upmost importance to remember that when we make our arguments, we are primarily making them to the dispassionate, objective observer in the audience and not to our opponent. We are merely using our atheist opponents to air our arguments. Our main objective should be to present a persuasive case to the audience. We should never, ever expect our atheist opponents to agree with us about any topic at any time.
Mar-29-20
Premium Chessgames Member
  Big Pawn: < Why should I believe in him.>

Because of the answer I gave above. There are good reasons to believe that God exists but no reasons to believe the atheism is true.

< God has not talked to me. God has not addressed the world.
I don't see or hear him>

My consciousness has not talked to you.
My consciousness has not addressed the world.
You do not see or hear my consciousness.

Yet you believe that my consciousness exists.

Furthermore, none of the arguments I listed above rely on any of these arbitrary criterion.

Mar-29-20
Premium Chessgames Member
  thegoodanarchist: <Big Pawn:

In terms of the worth of suffering, suffering often leads people to God. It's the absence of suffering that leads people astray, which is why we should thank God even for our troubles.>

That is a very good point, <BP>, and quite timely with my stocks crashing and the pandemic putting the kybosh on most social activity.

Mar-29-20
Premium Chessgames Member
  thegoodanarchist: <Theistic philosophy has made huge strides in the last few decades>

Really? I had no idea. Who are the theistic philosophers who've been making strides? (I want some confirmation bias.)

Mar-29-20  optimal play: I think I get what <SugarDom> is saying.

He wants to know why God doesn't just make it obvious to everyone on earth, by some grand gesture, that he exists and is in charge and that this is what he wants everyone to do.

It would be so much easier that way.

Even the prophets of old desired this:

"Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down,
that the mountains would tremble before you!
As when fire sets twigs ablaze
and causes water to boil,
come down to make your name known to your enemies
and cause the nations to quake before you!

- Isaiah 64:1-2

Why God doesn't just do that is a mystery.

<Big Pawn> puts forward credible evidence from theistic philosophy but for most people this is not enough. It's too intellectual.

Like <SugarDom>, many people can only see the suffering and chaos and it doesn't seem to make sense.

Mar-29-20
Premium Chessgames Member
  Big Pawn: <tga: Really? I had no idea. Who are the theistic philosophers who've been making strides? (I want some confirmation bias.)>

Alvin Plantinga, William Lane Craig, Peter van Inwagen.

I refer you to this page on William Lane Craig's site.

https://www.reasonablefaith.org/wri...

Mar-29-20
Premium Chessgames Member
  Big Pawn: < optimal play: I think I get what <SugarDom> is saying.

He wants to know why God doesn't just make it obvious to everyone on earth, by some grand gesture, that he exists and is in charge and that this is what he wants everyone to do.>

I think a lot of people, in fact most people, would say that God's existence is obvious. I think that people who deny that God exists actually think that God exists and they are just lying to themselves.

<Why God doesn't just do that is a mystery. >

It's not a mystery because God has done that. Look at all the signs and wonders he did for Israel during the Exodus. The more signs he gave them, the less faith they had. Same with Pharaoh, who hardened his heart 10 times despite all the miracles. Same with Israel after the resurrection and the thousands of miracles that Jesus performed, including healing the lame, the blind and raising the dead.

This just goes to show that it's true that "faith comes by hearing, and hearing the word of God."

<<Big Pawn> puts forward credible evidence from theistic philosophy but for most people this is not enough. It's too intellectual.>

Yes, it's on the intellectual side, but only those hiding from God in their intellect would raise those kinds of issues anyhow. Most people think that God's existence is obvious without overthinking it. They don't need convincing.

<Like <SugarDom>, many people can only see the suffering and chaos and it doesn't seem to make sense.>

Such people assume that life is about feeling good and having things easy, and when they aren't, they want to know why God has allowed the default position to be turned upside down. But the meaning of life is not found in pleasure, but in knowing God, and more people come to know God through suffering than through pleasure.

Mar-30-20  optimal play: <Big Pawn: <optimal play: I think I get what <SugarDom> is saying. He wants to know why God doesn't just make it obvious to everyone on earth, by some grand gesture, that he exists and is in charge and that this is what he wants everyone to do.>

I think a lot of people, in fact most people, would say that God's existence is obvious. I think that people who deny that God exists actually think that God exists and they are just lying to themselves.>

Yes, but many people see God like the theist physicist Paul Davies, remote and unconcerned with humanity.

<<Why God doesn't just do that is a mystery.>

It's not a mystery because God has done that. Look at all the signs and wonders he did for Israel during the Exodus. The more signs he gave them, the less faith they had. Same with Pharaoh, who hardened his heart 10 times despite all the miracles. Same with Israel after the resurrection and the thousands of miracles that Jesus performed, including healing the lame, the blind and raising the dead. This just goes to show that it's true that "faith comes by hearing, and hearing the word of God.">

Yes, as Jesus himself said, “Unless you people see signs and wonders you will never believe.” (John 4:48)

<<<Big Pawn> puts forward credible evidence from theistic philosophy but for most people this is not enough. It's too intellectual.>

Yes, it's on the intellectual side, but only those hiding from God in their intellect would raise those kinds of issues anyhow. Most people think that God's existence is obvious without overthinking it. They don't need convincing.>

Yes, but what is the nature of their "god"?

<<Like <SugarDom>, many people can only see the suffering and chaos and it doesn't seem to make sense.>

Such people assume that life is about feeling good and having things easy, and when they aren't, they want to know why God has allowed the default position to be turned upside down. But the meaning of life is not found in pleasure, but in knowing God, and more people come to know God through suffering than through pleasure.>

Yes, but quite often they ask the same questions as <SugarDom>; If God exists why isn't he managing the planet? Why don't we hear from him anymore? Where is his prophet? Where is your evidence that God exists? What about all the evil, suffering and injustice in the world? Why hasn't God personally talked to me? Why hasn't God addressed the world now? Why don't I see or hear him? Why should I believe in him?

It's no use you just saying, "Here, examine these theistic philosophies," or "Here, read the Bible," or "Just accept suffering as good for you to believe in God".

In recent times the world has turned away from God. Maybe this pandemic is "divine retribution", however that may be understood?

Mar-30-20
Premium Chessgames Member
  Big Pawn: <Yes, but many people see God like the theist physicist Paul Davies, remote and unconcerned with humanity.>

I don't think *many* people see God that way.

<Yes, as Jesus himself said, “Unless you people see signs and wonders you will never believe.” (John 4:48)>

But he said that to the Jews, not to everyone, because the Jews require a sign.

"For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom" 1 Corinthians 1:22-24

<Yes, it's on the intellectual side, but only those hiding from God in their intellect would raise those kinds of issues anyhow. Most people think that God's existence is obvious without overthinking it. They don't need convincing.>

Yes, but what is the nature of their "god"?>

I'm not seeing how the nature of God follows?

<Yes, but quite often they ask the same questions as <SugarDom>; If God exists why isn't he managing the planet? Why don't we hear from him anymore?>

I don't think so. I think people who already rejected God, primarily because they love their sin, start to look for reasons to justify their decision, and they grope in the darkness, sifting through the lies they tell themselves, beginning with arbitrary questions like these.

Basically, they reject God and then, when they try to justify that decision, they stumble upon things like the Problem of Evil, which is busted. They will find no justification and will be judged rightly by God.

Mar-30-20  optimal play: <Big Pawn: <Yes, but many people see God like the theist physicist Paul Davies, remote and unconcerned with humanity.>

I don't think *many* people see God that way.>

I think they do.

Many people accept there's a God but think he's so far away as to be irrelevant to their lives.

<<Yes, as Jesus himself said, “Unless you people see signs and wonders you will never believe.” (John 4:48)>

But he said that to the Jews, not to everyone, because the Jews require a sign.

"For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom" 1 Corinthians 1:22-24>

Jesus' words apply to all. Paul was writing specifically to the Corinthians, who are Greek.

<<<Yes, it's on the intellectual side, but only those hiding from God in their intellect would raise those kinds of issues anyhow. Most people think that God's existence is obvious without overthinking it. They don't need convincing.>

Yes, but what is the nature of their "god"?>

I'm not seeing how the nature of God follows?>

You say that most people think that God's existence is obvious without overthinking it, but not everybody worships the same God. For example, abortionists worship the pagan god Moloch, to whom they sacrifice their children, because that is the nature of their "god".

<<Yes, but quite often they ask the same questions as <SugarDom>; If God exists why isn't he managing the planet? Why don't we hear from him anymore?>

I don't think so. I think people who already rejected God, primarily because they love their sin, start to look for reasons to justify their decision, and they grope in the darkness, sifting through the lies they tell themselves, beginning with arbitrary questions like these. Basically, they reject God and then, when they try to justify that decision, they stumble upon things like the Problem of Evil, which is busted. They will find no justification and will be judged rightly by God.>

This attitude by so many people reflects my earlier point that many people see God like the theist physicist Paul Davies, remote and unconcerned with humanity.

Mar-30-20
Premium Chessgames Member
  Big Pawn: <Many people accept there's a God but think he's so far away as to be irrelevant to their lives.>

Yes, you said this the first time and I still think that not *many* people think like this. Deism isn't a fringe view.

<Jesus' words apply to all. Paul was writing specifically to the Corinthians, who are Greek.>

Jesus' words do not apply to all all the time so you have to look at the context. In this context, Jesus was speaking to the Jews. We know this because Jesus told Paul, who wrote in Corinthians, that Jews require a sign and Greeks require wisdom.

<You say that most people think that God's existence is obvious without overthinking it, but not everybody worships the same God. >

That doesn't matter. People look around, think about life and realize that God exists.

<For example, abortionists worship the pagan god Moloch, to whom they sacrifice their children, because that is the nature of their "god".>

Find me an abortionist who think they are worshiping God when they sacrifice their children. You have to be careful not to equivocate on the word God.

<This attitude by so many people reflects my earlier point that many people see God like the theist physicist Paul Davies, remote and unconcerned with humanity.>

I think deism is a fringe worldview, taken by just a few.

Mar-30-20
Premium Chessgames Member
  diceman: <optimal play:

Yes, but quite often they ask the same questions as <SugarDom>>

While I get the question, I'm not even sure it relates to this. This is simply human emotion making this big because it is here and now. Many more people die of other things (car crash) that we don't even think about because it's routine/invisible.

It's also a question of how you look at it.

1) They're projecting a 1% death rate
for this, so maybe the 99% survival rate is the "good."

(Imagine if 8 out of 10 died, and your age/health were irrelevant)

2) Some at least, will learn and improve their situation. The medical community, states having proper supplies, pulling away from China as your drug/medical supplier, individuals being better prepared in the next crisis, and so on.

3) Someone who losses a job may find a better one when this is over. People not going to work is probably saving lives in work related accidents, and car crashes driving to and from work.

As they say, "The Lord works in mysterious ways."

Heck, there are even those who say
this is somewhat of a blow to the
Sanders/Climate change crowd. We are
experiencing how important freedom/capitalism are.

Mar-30-20  optimal play: <Big Pawn: ... I still think that not *many* people think like this. Deism isn't a fringe view. ... I think deism is a fringe worldview, taken by just a few.>

That's contradictory but I take it you meant "Deism is a fringe view."

I suspect it's more prevalent than you think, but we won't get bogged down in that.

<Jesus' words do not apply to all all the time so you have to look at the context. In this context, Jesus was speaking to the Jews. We know this because Jesus told Paul, who wrote in Corinthians, that Jews require a sign and Greeks require wisdom.>

Yes, in the context of that passage Jesus was speaking to the Jews, but then Jesus' ministry was confined to Galilee and Jerusalem, so he was always speaking to the Jews. Yet via the Gospel Jesus continues to speak to all people down through the ages.

I don't know what you mean by <Jesus told Paul, who wrote in Corinthians ...>?

<People look around, think about life and realize that God exists.>

As simple as that?

<Find me an abortionist who think they are worshiping God when they sacrifice their children. You have to be careful not to equivocate on the word God.>

Obviously an abortionist does not worship the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ! In fact quite the opposite!

This is what I meant by "the nature of their 'god'".

You say that "People look around, think about life and realize that God exists", but their actions express their belief.

The word "God" or "god" is in fact ambiguous, and therein lies much of the problem.

Mar-30-20  optimal play: <diceman: ... While I get the question, I'm not even sure it relates to this. This is simply human emotion making this big because it is here and now.>

Yes, in Australia the total number of deaths from the Chinese virus stands at 17 with 4,163 cases out of a population of 25 million. Nevertheless, the whole country has been shut down, just like everywhere else.

Now of course shutting down the country has undoubtedly minimised the number of cases and therefore deaths, but we don't shut down the country to minimise car accident deaths (to use your example).

The Lord indeed works in mysterious ways so all we can do is trust Him and keep the faith.

Mar-30-20
Premium Chessgames Member
  thegoodanarchist: <BP> thanks for the list!
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