It is exceptional - in the sense that very few, a very small percent understand the teachings of Jesus in full depth and glory to be able to go all the way to have kingdom of heaven. They instead lose themselves in worldly pleasures and miss the purpose of life - to get in touch with kingdom of heaven within.

Well, in this context , Self - knowledge has a different meaning (usually , teachers/scholars use capital 'S' here)

It is not self-knowledge in the sense of self - awareness as in 'I know my strengths and weaknesses and I at any point can see myself as others are seeing me and if I am being boastful , I am aware, if I am being polite , I am aware and so on'

What I'm saying in all this, is that if one believes they have fallen away from God, then they never knew God in the first place. >

It isn't simple at all. What surprises me the most is that you see it in some things, not in others.

For example, you are agnostic on predestination. If it were so simple a topic you could easily come to a conclusion one way or the other.

And you have been back and forth on free will many times.

So you see that these things aren't so cut and dried. But then you don't apply that to other areas.

Another example is <Can you unborn yourself? Of course not. >

But this sounds a lot like Nicodemus' objection to being born again, and Jesus made it clear in his reply that he was missing the point.

I am not saying you are missing the point, but I am saying you have what seems from my vantage point an inconsistent apprehension of significant doctrines. Some you think are quite cut and dried, others you go back and forth trying to work out.

To say <Can you unborn yourself? Of course not. > may be so, but it isn't an accurate description of what I went through anyway. I never went back to who I was before conversion, and conversion or not I don't think people can go back to an earlier version of their spirit, as I said before.

You also recognize that "faith" is not so easy of a subject to nail down the truth of. (I apologize for the clunky-ness of that sentence).

So it took me a long time to get to my point for this post, but here goes:

What is "falling away"?

Personally, I quit the church. I tried to make atheism work but couldn't, and at this point in my life I am convinced 100% that God exists, as God has provided me with irrefutable evidence.

<Going back in life> - this would include being the exact same age you were before and that's not possible, nor does it fit into this discussion. >

Sorry, you are wrong. This isn't a demonstration at all. We were discussing the spirit - *that* is the context.

<the exact same age> refers to the physical body. These are two different concepts entirely, and you are mistakenly introducing the physical body because you removed the statement from its context. I was talking about the spiritual nature *only*.

<thegoodanarchist: <Just as I can tell a guy it's wrong to beat his wife, even though he asks me "are you married?" or "Are you in my position?">

Not analogous.>

It is analogous and here's why.

Your objection to my commenting on your "falling away", which I said can't happen, was that I am not you so I can't comment.

Does one really have to be someone else to comment on something like that?

The apostle Paul gave advice on marriage, but he was not married.

If you want to say that it's not analogous (meaning that just because I'm not you therefore I can't comment) then explain why, otherwise merely saying "not analogous" doesn't have any weight.

<What I'm saying in all this, is that if one believes they have fallen away from God, then they never knew God in the first place. >

It isn't simple at all. What surprises me the most is that you see it in some things, not in others.

For example, you are agnostic on predestination. If it were so simple a topic you could easily come to a conclusion one way or the other.>

It is simple, but if you try to force things with your intellect, nothing seems simple ever. When you know the Truth, <tga>, things are simple.

<agnostic re predestination>

This is because ideas about predestination are based on the intellect, and who can really know?

Whereas when it come to a spiritual change (having God's nature and being reborn of God), that is not an intellectual thing. It's entirely experiential and spiritual.

Furthermore, I don't really concern myself so much with intellectualizing church doctrines. I used to, but I don't anymore.

<Another example is <Can you unborn yourself? Of course not. >

But this sounds a lot like Nicodemus' objection to being born again, and Jesus made it clear in his reply that he was missing the point.>

Only on the surface. Nicodemus, the Teacher of Israel (the foremost expert on scripture at the time), didn't understand why Jesus' analogy meant. But Jesus made it clear. Just as you have no part in being born, so you have no part in being born again of God. It happens to you. You don't do it. And, likewise, you can't unborn yourself. Again, it happened to you, not the other way around.

<To say <Can you unborn yourself? Of course not. > may be so, but it isn't an accurate description of what I went through anyway. I never went back to who I was before conversion,>

That doesn't matter one iota. What we are talking about is your spiritual status:

Are you born of God?
Are you not born of God?
Do you *think* you were born of God and then got unborn of God?

That is the entirety of it.

<You also recognize that "faith" is not so easy of a subject to nail down the truth of. (I apologize for the clunky-ness of that sentence).>

Yes, people waffle all over the place about faith. They think they need to believe everything the bible says or it's "not having faith". That is not what is meant by faith. We are to have faith in God and nothing else, including our own thoughts.

<What is "falling away"?

Personally, I quit the church. I tried to make atheism work but couldn't, and at this point in my life I am convinced 100% that God exists, as God has provided me with irrefutable evidence.

Did I "fall away"?>

No. It's impossible, but I would say that you were never reborn of God. I realize this is the kind of statement that makes people hate me, but in my view I'm helping you by fellowshipping with you and you should resist resenting me for it. Just two cents there.

I can say this. If you have anger, then you have unforgiveness and if you have unforgiveness you do not have the nature of God, and if you do not have the nature of God then you were not reborn of God.

<thegoodanarchist: <No, you are wrong about this and I am right. We cannot agree to disagree.

I will demonstrate simply.

<Going back in life> - this would include being the exact same age you were before and that's not possible, nor does it fit into this discussion. >

Sorry, you are wrong. This isn't a demonstration at all. We were discussing the spirit - *that* is the context.>

True. One can not know with certainty before reaching the peak , before reaching the ultimate 'state' - purity of Jesus.

However, one gets reasonably good knowledge about it as one makes spiritual progress. Because the key to it is : where do the thoughts come from.

Nonetheless, the point of <big pawn> is correct. That this subject of predestination is different from the subject of whether the changes that take place as one acts on teachings of Jesus permanent or not.

1)to know all the secrets of universe including subject of predestination

2)to have kingdom of heaven. To have unshakable happiness (happiness that is beyond pleasure and pain). A peaceful state. Restful state. In the same domain as the restfulness of deep dreamless state. Restfulness/happiness/peace of deep dreamless sleep while awake and many times more in magnitude.

Both these dimensions become available when one reaches peak, ultimate 'state' - 'state' of Jesus.

However, in initial stages progress in second dimensions is fast and easily seen.

There is always some discontent before one reaches 'state' of Jesus. Degree varies. Some people are unhappy , some are content. But even those people who are calm/content/happy , they two have some degree of discontent , some restlessness. During the day , it fluctuates. We have good meal , say, and we feel content and mind becomes quiet/still for a while. And then becomes restless again and so on.

After reaching 'state' of Jesus, discontent is gone permanently and we have unshakable happiness/restfulness/peace/content irrespective of material situations.

Thanks, <BP>.

I almost always enjoy reading your posts, even when you are not directing them to me. You have a desire to ascertain the truth, which I appreciate.

<<thegoodanarchist: <Just as I can tell a guy it's wrong to beat his wife, even though he asks me "are you married?" or "Are you in my position?">

Not analogous.>

It is analogous and here's why. >

I read your justification for your claim.

However, telling someone it is wrong to beat his wife is an assessment about a relationship between two people.

You were offering an assessment about my relationship with God. Not 2 people, but 1 human and one non-human entity.

Not analogous.

<<Did I "fall away"?>

No. It's impossible, but I would say that you were never reborn of God. I realize this is the kind of statement that makes people hate me, >

I don't hate you at all. In fact, I like you more than most people on this website.

Anyway, let's get back to the beginning of our entire discussion on this topic. I am not going to scroll back, but rely on memory. I think I said that I "fell away" and assumed that we both had the same meaning in mind for that phrase.

But after discussion, I realized that you have a meaning for that phrase in your mind that is different from the one I have.

For me, it means to quit practicing formal Christianity - stop reading the Bible, stop going to church, etc.

First of all, I appreciate your thorough response but I think one thing got lost in the length of our back-and-forth, so I reiterated it above: What do you mean by "fall away"?

And I only ask because I don't think we agree on the definition of it.

Second of all, and most interesting to me, is the discussion of being born again.

For reference, I will just note part of your reply on predestination:

<ideas about predestination are based on the intellect, and who can really know?>

Right! Who can really know? It is of God, so God only knows.

Then there is this:

<We were, but you broadened it when you got away from talking specifically about spirit and started talking about "we can't go back at all..." So I wanted to correct that and bring the discussion back around to the spiritual status of being born of God and the impossibility of being unborn of God.>

My point (that we can't go back) is this. Think of who you were as a person, not physically, but your soul, your personality, your spirit, the non-corporeal parts, at age 22 (or any age). Then at age 37, or 15 years later. You changed from 22 to 37, but you won't then spend the next 15 years from 37 to 52 going back to who you were at 22.

Not you, not anyone. Doesn't happen. I don't think it even is possible. And the physical body is irrelevant to this thesis.

But back to being "born of God". The discussion about Nicodemus is centered on the text of The Gospel according to John. Not on what Jesus said, but what the author recorded! Think about that for a little while.

The author was trying to make a point to his audience. And his point was what? His point was that Jesus was trying to teach his audience about a transformation of the human spirit, a transformation made by God. This is a thing that is of God.

So this is a concept that was and is foreign to people. Then how could/did Jesus teach this concept? Through analogy. But Nicodemus took the analogy the wrong way, and Jesus chided him for it.

But now we are not watching a youtube video of this actually happening, or reading the writings of Jesus or Nicodemus. We are reading the account of it that was written about 90 to 120 years after the actual event took place, through the filter of time and the filter of the person who wrote it.

And that author took pains to warn his readers not to make a mistake like Nicodemus. Don't take the analogy too literally or you miss the point, the point of this transformation, which is of God.

Not analogous. >

The content of that which I am commenting on is not the issue that makes it analogous or not, because I'm taking issue with your objection. The issue is your objection, which was based on me not being you (therefore how can I know?).

<Anyway, let's get back to the beginning of our entire discussion on this topic. I am not going to scroll back, but rely on memory. I think I said that I "fell away" and assumed that we both had the same meaning in mind for that phrase.

But after discussion, I realized that you have a meaning for that phrase in your mind that is different from the one I have>

That seems to be the case.

<For me, it means to quit practicing formal Christianity - stop reading the Bible, stop going to church, etc.

What does this phrase mean to you? An answer to that will help me understand your POV much better.>

Falling away means not being a Christian anymore.

Most people think that if they are practicing a so called formal Christianity, then they are Christians.

I am saying that does not make one a Christian. A Christian is reborn of God and has God's nature instead of his old nature. It's a spiritual rebirth. A spiritual change. A new spiritual status.

I don't go to church and I read only a little of the bible here and there, and I consider myself a Christian.

A Christian has found his way back to the Father, through Christ, through faith and by spiritual rebirth he is given a renewed mind and spiritual nature.

A lot of people do the Christian thing in church for a while but since their lives don't <really> change, and since they see that most of the people who they know as Christians also lead messed up lives one way or another, they say the heck with this. This stuff doesn't work!

One problem is that the pastors and ministers don't have any answers. They preach feel good sermons and send the people home, feeling good that they "did the right thing" and went to church.

Look at it this way. The bible says that the road to destruction is wide and many will follow that road, but very few will follow the narrow path of righteousness. If it were true that everyone in a Christian church was a Christian and going to heaven, then most people would be going to heaven.

The pastors and ministers aren't bringing people back to the Father through Christ. They just lead them up to the alter to say the magic words and that's it. That's an intellectual change and not a spiritual one. These guys go to SCHOOL to learn how to be a pastor!

Of God.

My being born again and then quitting the church, and having you comment on that, is not analogous to you commenting on a man & wife relationship, because a marriage is a relationship between two people, but being born again is of God. It is about a relationship not of two people, but of one human and one God. Not analogous.

Predestination is a matter of God as well.

These matters that are of God? You cannot have a definitive understanding of them. I cannot. No human can.

You realize that you cannot, or at least, do not, have a definitive understanding of free will. You've been back and forth on it. Because ultimately it is of God. The things that are of God? Humans cannot have a definitive understanding of them.

So when you say I am wrong about being born again and falling away?

<So when you say I am wrong about being born again and falling away?

Not only do you not have a definitive understanding, and so cannot say for sure, but it is *not possible* for you to have a definitive understanding, because this is a thing that is of God. Man just cannot fully comprehend what is of God.>

Because that is not based on my own thinking or my imagination. God has allowed me to see this. A Christian doesn't live in his thoughts, in his imagination. He lives by revelation. Outside of God, we can do nothing and we can know nothing.

I have been through the experience of spiritual change, and I know myself. I have a nonjudgmental awareness of myself and my thoughts, which I doubt all the time if they come from the imagination.

See, I can comment on the nature of being born of God and the impossibility of being unborn of God whether your particular situation comes into it or not. I can say A and then B and therefore not C, and if you want to substitute your name for one of the variables it doesn't change anything.

Jesus said that the kingdom of God is at hand.

At hand means it's right there. You can have it. It's inside you. It's another reality. It's the *real* reality, whereas the external world is the fake reality, so to speak.

It's very easy to get the faith one needs to enter into the kingdom of God. There's a way to do it and when you do it, it changes your life and then you know for yourself.

The way back to the Father is easy and good. It's nothing at all like they talk about in the churches, mostly.

But you gotta know what faith really is and what it means to live by faith in your own life. It's not what the "Christians" say, at least not how I see it.

At hand means it's right there. You can have it. It's inside you. It's another reality. It's the *real* reality, whereas the external world is the fake reality, so to speak>

Correct.

And that is the whole purpose of life.

To have kingdom of heaven .

Other way of saying it : if I don't know contents of someone's dream that does not mean I can not tell that person is sleeping.

Another way of saying this is : at highest 'state' - 'state' of Jesus - one does not need to think . all the solutions come to us spontaneously . kind of like when we teaching maths , answers come to us spontaneously at time without needing to think - equivalent of being in zone in sports (roughly.) . That state is called sattva in Sanskrit/Hindi. That is what being still means.

I think that is not true.

I agree with you that it is time to move forward with the conversation.

Predictable outcome.

Why?

Because a mere intellectual conversation/debate in the realm of spirituality/teachings of Jesus is futile.

One should show the same approach as in the matters of science. In science we listen , dwell in the subject and then test.

You're "standing by" this?

Is that to say you are standing by what I said about doubting all thoughts that come from the imagination?

Or are you standing by that man cannot understand anything without revelation from God?

Or, and this is what our disagreement was really about, you are standing by your statement that I can't comment rightfully on people (in this case you) not being able to "fall away" once they are born of God (because I am not that person so I don't know)?

So just to make it all clear, there are two points being made.

1. I am saying that one who is born of God doesn't not "fall away".

2. I can rightfully comment that no one can fall away once born of God, even though you, <tga>, say you did just that, and I can't just tell you that you weren't born of God, because I don't need to be you or read your mind or heart to be able to say that.

Considering these two points, your last remark seems vague and somehow not relevant <I will stand by what I wrote in this forum already (not possible to have definitive understanding, etc.>

People love to "stand by what they wrote".

It feels good. But in this case, it's neither here nor there.

To say that one cannot be unborn of God does not require the knowledge of the deep and mysterious things of God that only God can understand.

That's just a smokescreen. That's a way of saying, <big pawn, I want out of this conversation and this is how I'm going to get out of it>.

It's the same way with most Christians. I can't talk to them about this stuff either. They just repeat the churchy sayings that they've heard since they were young and they repeat them as though it's straight from God himself, but it's not. There's a lot of dogma in Christian doctrine and in that, a lot of pride and intellectualism. Intellectualizing is how pride masturbates. I mean, it's okay to apply your sound mind to a thing, yes, but intellectualizing for the sake of pride is pure masturbation.